ARE THESE THE SAME STOVES?

[titan]

Looking at various stoves on the web, i noticed that the Quad-Isle Royale, Harman-Oakwood, and Lopi-Leyden are all eerily similar to the V.C.-Defiant.-Are they being subbed out to one main facility for their basic castings? This question appears self-explanatory and may already have been posted here but this mirroring of stoves has just now caught my eye. :-/

 

[webbie]

Hmmm, you'll probably get better answers, but the Harman may be as VC makes some Harman cast parts - but Quad - that is more doubtful since they use Asian and European castings and are not likely to be using higher priced VC stuff.

A guess only.

 

[HarryBack]

Ive heard a rumor (well, first hand knowledge from someone on this board who has literally SEEN the moulds) that VC is in fact casting some things for Harman.

 

[Corie]

Its less that they're the same stove and more (in my opinion) that Vermont Castings created that "look" in cast iron many years ago. The general "look" of their stoves has changed little over the years and the other companies have seen the timeless popularity of the design and are trying to build things similar. This is of course only my opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt.



But think about it, the door openings, reliefs in the castings, general shape, legs, etc were all first made widely popular by the older Vermont Castings stoves.

 

[Jabberwocky]

This goes to a more basic question. Why do the majority of American and Canadian made stoves look so damned ugly? I was researching pellet stoves and stumbled on Italian and Austrian varieties and was shocked at how much effort went into styling. Granted, they were all of a modern style and that will not work in my house nor probably in yours but I'll be frank: some brands look like hell. The ones they sell in Home cheapo look like you have to strap on an apron and heat up horseshoes with. They're barely fit as basement heaters. How do you make something like that the center piece of a living area?

Some good looking ones (in my opinion). Thelin (antique), Quadrafire, Harmon Invincible (now discontinued), Enviro Empress (antique). Something does not need to be modern to be attractive. I think there may be a market out there for better looking stoves as the appeal of especially the pellet extends to the tree huggers.

Some of these companies would do well to hire an industrial designer. Not one company in america puts out a modern looking stove. A dealer in southern NH is picking up the austroflamm (rika) brand ... it'll be interesting to see how he does ... he's located in a priceylocal Amherst/Hudson/Northern Mass.

 

[titan]

Jabberwocky,I agree with your take on the lack of design with regard to wood and pellet stoves[especially pellet stoves].I don't know if it only pertains to North American manufacturers though.Surely new designs cost a lot to implement but is there a lack of imaginationmarketing in place that causes mfg's to keep pushing a lot of the same old stuff?It's likely based on consumer demand and "sticking with what workssells."As for interesting designs; companies like Scan and Morso[eg.] are doing stoves in cast iron ,steel,and stone that appear unique to the industry IMO.

 

[webbie]

This goes to a more basic question. Why do the majority of American and Canadian made stoves look so damned ugly? .

Same exact reason that SUV's are shaped like cardboard boxes!

Americans are not known, in general, for taste and style. An OWB may be considered the height of fashion in some places. A guy on the phone today told me, when I mentioned Extendaflue looks good, that "heck, only the cows and me with a beer will be seeing it".

So I guess that says it all.

 

[webbie]

is there a lack of imaginationmarketing in place that causes mfg's to keep pushing a lot of the same old stuff?It's likely based on consumer demand and "sticking with what workssells."As for interesting designs; companies like Scan and Morso[eg.] are doing stoves in cast iron ,steel,and stone that appear unique to the industry IMO.

It's all based around relatively short term profit. In Europe the idea of design and creativity is as important (or more) in some places than the idea of getting richer. It is rare in todays market to find a stove company that will really innovate and take chances for the long term.

Many of these European stoves have TINY markets, but the owners are really proud of their stuff - and they go to work every day with the idea of being on the cutting edge. That's the Scan, Max Blank, etc. thing - not that they don't want to make money, it's just that "advancing the art" often comes first.

Here in the states, we tend to reward copycats more than we reward the innovators. VC was the innovator and they went broke! more than once!

Dutchwest made stuff in Taiwan and DROVE VC broke.

Who is making the most $$ on tools? - harbor freight!

It's the same reason that all the major US car manufacturers went down in sales last month...

To be clear, we have the skills, we have the creativity - but our business, corporate and cultural style makes heros of the folks who rake in the bucks, as opposed to the best engineers and designers (who deserve to be on pedastals).

 

[Eric Johnson]

Corie! Get down off that pedestal, dammit!

How many times do I have to tell you? Not until you've got your degree!

 

[BrotherBart]

Shhhh. The heating and hammering horseshoes on my 30-NC has been my little secret. Now everybody will be doing it.

Believe me, when that horse is standing in the middle of the living room waiting for his new shoes, nobody notices the stove's styling.

 

[alfio]

Looking at various stoves on the web, i noticed that the Quad-Isle Royale, Harman-Oakwood, and Lopi-Leyden are all eerily similar to the V.C.-Defiant.-Are they being subbed out to one main facility for their basic castings? This question appears self-explanatory and may already have been posted here but this mirroring of stoves has just now caught my eye. :-/

I agree with craig , that they might look alike , but considering that harman's are assembled with gaskets , and not with cement which means that there stove must have tighter tolerances , I wold bet that there stoves are built by marso, they are the original company to build there stoves with gaskets and not by vermont castings . And has for the quad, it was built in Belgium by dovre , it was acquired by them, and Plus they all have different technology in them.

 

[begreen]

The Quad Isle Royale from what I can tell is a different stove and is not a variant on the everburn design. I thought the castings were from Belgium (Dovre??).

 

[Gunner]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I like a good steel box, but that's just me. I have heard people rave about woodstock looks, but they're to delicate looking for me. I would expect to see a grama sitting next to it, crocheting a doilley and sipping tea. That doesn't mean that YOU won't find it good looking tho.

IMO there is a good selection out there style wise.

 

[titan]

No doubt each manufacturer claims a proprietary burn technology, but you can't deny their cookie-cutter construction.

 

[alfio]

[quote author="BeGreen" date="1175730308"]The Quad Isle Royale from what I can tell is a different stove and is not a variant on the everburn design. I thought the castings were from Belgium (Dovre??).[/qu

yes your right begreen it was dovre and it has secondary tubes in it . the harman ,lopi, and vermont castings have similar after burners .

 

[Corie]

Corie! Get down off that pedestal, dammit!

How many times do I have to tell you? Not until you've got your degree!

Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry

 

[alfio]

Hi, gunner how do you like that echo fan does it work for you I'm thinking of purchasing one .

 

[elkimmeg]

Looking at various stoves on the web, i noticed that the Quad-Isle Royale, Harman-Oakwood, and Lopi-Leyden are all eerily similar to the V.C.-Defiant.-Are they being subbed out to one main facility for their basic castings? This question appears self-explanatory and may already have been posted here but this mirroring of stoves has just now caught my eye. :-/

I agree with craig , that they might look alike , but considering that harman's are assembled with gaskets , and not with cement which means that there stove must have tighter tolerances , I wold bet that there stoves are built by marso, they are the original company to build there stoves with gaskets and not by vermont castings . And has for the quad, it was built in Belgium by dovre , it was acquired by them, and Plus they all have different technology in them.

Better get your data straight the Everburn Encore has been made with gasketed seams for the past 2 years same with the non cat Defiant and many of the everburn dutch west stoves
I know for a fact VC has enamaled Harman stoves for the past 6 years. Since Harman has whearhouses full of stoves they decided to cut back the Plant expansion plans Originally They had planned to cast and enamal in house but cutting back they contracted VC to do their castings Why because it takes 4 months from order to receiving castings from Europe or The pacific Basin VC can have parts to them in 2 days.. VC also owns the bottom feed pellet stove paterns. That not the only company their foundrys cast for either.

The everburn technology is the same used in the Harman oakwood. Harman calls it Fire Dome. The Lopi Leyden also uses the same technology Quad at this time does not.

It is all basec on the horizontal burn pprinciple where smoke is drawn down pulled threw the hot coals injected into a secondary burn chamber which is also injected with super heated ait and ignited in that chamber simmilar to a mini gassification chamber temps can go up to 1700 degrees.

Guesswho installs the Harman gaskets?

 

[Gunner]

Hi, gunner how do you like that echo fan does it work for you I'm thinking of purchasing one .

They are nice but don't expect to be blown away by a cone of air.(150cfm for the 3 blade model 100cfm for the 2 blade) They are a great conversation piece and add "life" to the hearth but if your looking to move some serious air you will need something else. With a couple of warm days and the stove running only in the evening it is really wierd not seeing it spin...when it sits idle I just don't feel right :-/

 

[alfio]

Hi, gunner how do you like that echo fan does it work for you I'm thinking of purchasing one .

They are nice but don't expect to be blown away by a cone of air.(150cfm for the 3 blade model 100cfm for the 2 blade) They are a great conversation piece and add "life" to the hearth but if your looking to move some serious air you will need something else. With a couple of warm days and the stove running only in the evening it is really wierd not seeing it spin...when it sits idle I just don't feel right :-/

Thanks for the info.

 

[alfio]

Looking at various stoves on the web, i noticed that the Quad-Isle Royale, Harman-Oakwood, and Lopi-Leyden are all eerily similar to the V.C.-Defiant.-Are they being subbed out to one main facility for their basic castings? This question appears self-explanatory and may already have been posted here but this mirroring of stoves has just now caught my eye. :-/

I agree with craig , that they might look alike , but considering that harman's are assembled with gaskets , and not with cement which means that there stove must have tighter tolerances , I wold bet that there stoves are built by marso, they are the original company to build there stoves with gaskets and not by vermont castings . And has for the quad, it was built in Belgium by dovre , it was acquired by them, and Plus they all have different technology in them.

Better get your date straight the Everburn Encore has been made with gasketed seams for the past 2 years same with the non cat Defiant and many of the everburn dutch west stoves
I know for a fact VC has enamaled Harman stoves for the past 6 years. Since Harman has whearhouses full of stoves they decided to cut back the Plant expansion plans Originally They had planned to cast and enamal in house but cutting back they contracted VC to do their castings Why because it takes 4 months from order to receiving castings from Europe or The pacific Basin VC can have parts to them in 2 days.. VC also owns the bottom feed pellet stove paterns. That not the only company their foundrys cast for either.

The everburn technology is the same used in the Harman oakwood. Harman calls it Fire Dome. The Lopi Leyden also uses the same technology Quad at this time does not.

It is all basec on the horizontal burn pprinciple where smoke is drawn down pulled threw the hot coals injected into a secondary burn chamber which is also injected with super heated ait and ignited in that chamber simmilar to a mini gassification chamber temps can go up to 1700 degrees.

Guesswho installs the Harman gaskets?

OK i stand corrected thank for the info.

 

[jtp10181]

Quadrafire bought, became, or merged (cant remeber which exactly) both Dovre and Alladin. It would make sense if the original "Dovre" company was still making the cast peices.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

i believe the dover line of quadrafire is being cast in belgium.

 

[webbie]

Dovre is/was a Belgium foundry- however, it is my guess (granted a guess) that Quad and many others who are recently getting into the cast biz source in Asia. I say that because, although Elk is somewhat correct about lead times (no, VC cannot supply enameled castings on a 2 day lead time!) , a price of $.30 a pound generally looks better to a bean counter than a price of $1.00 a pound - those are some idea of the price difference.

All of Heat-n-Glo gas castings....and, of course it is the same company as Quad - were Asian made...and, I should note - of very high quality....these days there is really no difference as ISO standards and American/European overseers in China can keep the standards really high.

Since labor costs here are so high, a foundry must be really efficient and high production - or else high priced - to make it. VC was built with loans and concessions from the state - and then when they went bust a couple times, the next buyer got the benefits (a foundry for much less than it could cost today). I think it would be tough for Harman to build one - although they had the plans to do so. It's just not that profitable of a biz....

Then again, Travis (lopi, avalon) had an aluminum and brass foundry and ended up doing pretty well! Still has them.....as far as I know.

 

[elkimmeg]

In a crunch it is possible to cast parts enamal them and ship them to Pa in 2 or 3 days as apposed to 4 months Buying from the pacific basin requires filling 1/2 the shipping container due to weigh. When one factors they arrive in San Degio a then shipped acrost the country, Even bean counter can see the cost convience. What if a shipment gets dammaged or is cast poorly then what? Wait another 4 months for replacement when orders are made and need to be filled? Web what is your answer to that situation? Why do youy think more and more companies are subctracting VC? I'll tell you what happens, the manufactures essemble as many stoves as possible and pick threw the parts. At Vc they reject parts they get melted down and re cast. VC purchases the scrap iron here it does not get shipped to China then cast. Web is right labor cost more here, but logistics I mentioned, is making VC looking good as an alternative. They run 3 shifts a day the furnaces are run 24/7 and they are taking on subcontracting including making Lodge frying pans. They even casty parts for the Auto industry. In no way did I say Vc castings were of better quality, but it is hard to beat the 6 hour trip south to PA ,if you are Harman or 10 minute trip for Woodstock. If web has not checked the fuel prices recently of desel or #2 crude oil , shipping has become a huge cost factor in pricing. so much so,t may now be cheaper to manufacture parts here, if factories were still in opperations. All I'm saying logistics is making Vermont looking good. In no way am I ataching a quality lable