Barn insulating

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Kool_hand_Looke

Feeling the Heat
Dec 8, 2013
469
Illinois
I've got a machinery shed with a concrete floor. The vent is between the top of the walls and roof.

How do I insulate this with keeping vents? Or...what I'd like is to heat it with wood. But I'm wondering if I should just seal it up then. Or not even insulate it.

And what's a good indoor wood furnace?
 
Bump.
What are you trying to accomplish; warmer space or warmer occupants?
The goals will influence the means greatly.
 
I am assuming this is an uninsulated metal framed sheet metal walled shed, with something like passive vent openings in the soffit area.

Venting:
If you are not creating any major fumes in there, you could block a significant amount of the passive venting. Or you could block all of it, and install a fan/blower at an appropriate cfm, that you could run when occupied, or when fumes are being created...

Heat loss due to forced ventilation is roughly BTU/h = CFM*DeltaT (the temp difference inside to outside)

Insulation:
A thin uninsulated wall will be about R-1 to R-1.5. The formula for heat loss is BTU/h = Area*DeltaT/R-value. Compute surface area of shed * DeltaT you want to achieve and divide by 1 or 1.5, the results will be the BTU/h you need get the heating you want.

Cheapest insulation that does not require an interior finish might be fiberglass batts with foil facing. One see this frequently in warehouses, etc. These will be R-3 to R-3.5 per inch of thickness. Adding even 1 or 2" of FG will take the R-value of the wall from 1-1.5 up to 4-6, and cut your BTU requirement by >75%.

So, now figure how many hours you want to do the heating per year, (or local heating degree days (HDD) times 24 for 24/7 heating), multiply that by your heat loss BTU/hour, and divide by your cost per BTU to get your annual heating cost. Assume $40-50/million BTU for elec, $30/MBTU for Propane, or 15 MBTU/cord wood for wood heat to get cords required per year.

I would run the heating cost at R-1 (no insulation) and for 1, 2, and 3" of FG (R-4.5, R-8, R-11.5). Then cost out the material cost of the insulation and make a call on what looks good in terms of upfront cost versus operating costs. For wood, if you get the BTU/h below ~40 kBTU/h you can prob run a stove (cheap) versus a furnace ($$). I would assume warmer workers would be better workers.

The way the math works out is one of diminishing returns. The first inch of FG cuts your BTU loss by 75%, 2 inches cuts it by 88%, but costs twice as much nominally. Also, insulating half of the area (say, just the roof) is stupid. You can see that in the math above, if half the area is R-1 and the other half is R-10, it is like having the entire area at R-2, but uses 5X the insulation. Like going outside in the winter with a warm coat and no pants.

You can crunch the numbers in a few minutes with a calculator or spreadsheet and pick what works for your application and budget.

Personally, if the space was frequently used and did not require a huge amount of ventilation, I would be pretty generous with the insulation.
If this is a garage that needs a ton of ventilation, I would look at propane fired radiant heaters in the ceiling.
 
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I am assuming this is an uninsulated metal framed sheet metal walled shed, with something like passive vent openings in the soffit area.

Venting:
If you are not creating any major fumes in there, you could block a significant amount of the passive venting. Or you could block all of it, and install a fan/blower at an appropriate cfm, that you could run when occupied, or when fumes are being created...

Heat loss due to forced ventilation is roughly BTU/h = CFM*DeltaT (the temp difference inside to outside)

Insulation:
A thin uninsulated wall will be about R-1 to R-1.5. The formula for heat loss is BTU/h = Area*DeltaT/R-value. Compute surface area of shed * DeltaT you want to achieve and divide by 1 or 1.5, the results will be the BTU/h you need get the heating you want.

Cheapest insulation that does not require an interior finish might be fiberglass batts with foil facing. One see this frequently in warehouses, etc. These will be R-3 to R-3.5 per inch of thickness. Adding even 1 or 2" of FG will take the R-value of the wall from 1-1.5 up to 4-6, and cut your BTU requirement by >75%.

So, now figure how many hours you want to do the heating per year, (or local heating degree days (HDD) times 24 for 24/7 heating), multiply that by your heat loss BTU/hour, and divide by your cost per BTU to get your annual heating cost. Assume $40-50/million BTU for elec, $30/MBTU for Propane, or 15 MBTU/cord wood for wood heat to get cords required per year.

I would run the heating cost at R-1 (no insulation) and for 1, 2, and 3" of FG (R-4.5, R-8, R-11.5). Then cost out the material cost of the insulation and make a call on what looks good in terms of upfront cost versus operating costs. For wood, if you get the BTU/h below ~40 kBTU/h you can prob run a stove (cheap) versus a furnace ($$). I would assume warmer workers would be better workers.

The way the math works out is one of diminishing returns. The first inch of FG cuts your BTU loss by 75%, 2 inches cuts it by 88%, but costs twice as much nominally. Also, insulating half of the area (say, just the roof) is stupid. You can see that in the math above, if half the area is R-1 and the other half is R-10, it is like having the entire area at R-2, but uses 5X the insulation. Like going outside in the winter with a warm coat and no pants.

You can crunch the numbers in a few minutes with a calculator or spreadsheet and pick what works for your application and budget.

Personally, if the space was frequently used and did not require a huge amount of ventilation, I would be pretty generous with the insulation.
If this is a garage that needs a ton of ventilation, I would look at propane fired radiant heaters in the ceiling.
Boom.

Thanks.
 
A little more googling shows that foil-faced FG has to be special ordered....since it is not recommended in residential wood frame construction.

You prob also want to google about insulating steel buildings, condensation can be an issue (also the case w/o insulation, if you limit the ventilation). If condensation is anticipated (depending on the use of the building) closed cell spray foam is prob a better approach, but is more expensive.
 
The only condensation I've seen is on the floor. And that's rare.
 
With the ventilation you have now, it will prevent condensation.
 
With the ventilation you have now, it will prevent condensation.
Yeah I assumed that much. That's why my OP was addressing by sealing that up with insulation. Or, if I even needed to insulate to keep heat bottled in when I'm in there
 
Do you have any idea of an indoor wood furnace that would be sufficient?
You called it a machinery shed. Do you have any gasoline powered equipment in there?
If so, you may not want any combustion based heating there.
 
A crappy lawn mower. Just because it got parked there once.

It's a machinery shed by design. I don't have anything like that in there.
 
I think we need a little more info re size and construction details....is it a shop, an art studio, a place to keep the inlaws, what? Whether the activities will create toxic vapors or water vapor is key to the ventilation issue.
 
I can't remember the demensions off the top of my head. But it's your average metal shed with more juice running to it and other large equipment necessities as well. What I'm gonna do with it is put a multiprocess welder in there and a propane or oxy-propylene cutting in there BUT the oxy/propyl tanks stored outside in bulk bottles and then plumb the gas inside. I plan on just tinkering out there. No car rebuilds, no engine rebuilds, and I plan on keeping this quiet from "friends" so I don't get stuck with there crap or welding their crap.
 
The only "fumes" would be weld smoke...and maybe some CAC smoke.
 
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