Barometric Damper

[eshwars]

Hi all,

I've gotten bids for installing a PE Summit LE inserts. Most of the bids are around the same price, but there's one that's almost twice as expensive. Looking over the bid, they're just charging more for their labor. BUT they are also including a Barometric Damper as part of the install. This is a $150 line item.

I tried asking the guy I'm planning to use about this and he said he does NOT plan to install a Barometric Damper. He doesn't install it in any of his jobs, but if I buy one for him, he'd be happy to install it for me.

I tried calling my local HVAC dealer. They said they can get Barometric Damper, but it's normally used for Gas boilers. They're not sure if it's rated for a fireplace insert.

Here my question:
1. Is a Barometric Damper important to have?
2. Does anyone know which brand or where to get one for a fireplace insert? The liner will be 6 inch

I tried searching the forums and although there are some posts about dampers, none of them specifically referred to "barometric damper".

Any other advice on this?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Your oil burner damper is not the same as the woodstove one.

 

[bholler]

Hi all,

I've gotten bids for installing a PE Summit LE inserts. Most of the bids are around the same price, but there's one that's almost twice as expensive. Looking over the bid, they're just charging more for their labor. BUT they are also including a Barometric Damper as part of the install. This is a $150 line item.

I tried asking the guy I'm planning to use about this and he said he does NOT plan to install a Barometric Damper. He doesn't install it in any of his jobs, but if I buy one for him, he'd be happy to install it for me.

I tried calling my local HVAC dealer. They said they can get Barometric Damper, but it's normally used for Gas boilers. They're not sure if it's rated for a fireplace insert.

Here my question:
1. Is a Barometric Damper important to have?
2. Does anyone know which brand or where to get one for a fireplace insert? The liner will be 6 inch

I tried searching the forums and although there are some posts about dampers, none of them specifically referred to "barometric damper".

Any other advice on this?

Thanks in advance for your help.

You shouldn't have a barometric damper on a wood stove and if an installer is willing to put one in I wouldn't recommend having him install your stove

 

[begreen]

Not on a wood stove. I haven't wrapped my head around how it would even be installed on this insert. Is this an exceptionally tall fireplace?

This thread from December is specific to barometric dampers.

Barometric Damper

This discussion was moved from key damper question thread. Already have a damper installed and it was fully closed during the test. A barometric damper is a whole other animal. Google it to see. Commonly used on furnaces and coal stoves

www.hearth.com

 

[eshwars]

begreen, thanks so much for pointing me to the thread. No, this is not an unusually tall fireplace. In fact, the PE Summit LE insert just about fits in the fireplace.

I read through the link you posted and it appears that I've completely misunderstood what a Barometric Damper is. I had assumed that it's like the damper you often see in exhaust fans that prevent a backdraft from coming in when the fan is not operational. ie. I assumed that a Barometric Damper would prevent air entering from the top of the chimney down to my insert on a windy day when my fireplace wasn't being used. That is to say that it provides a barrier so that only exhaust gases can leave through the liner/chimney but outsider air cannot enter.

The discussions on the thread you posted seems to suggest that it's instead a way to provide supplementary fresh air to the fire (on the intake side) in case the fire isn't being supplied with enough air (eg. if the manual damper is turned way down). Is that correct? If that's the case, I too am confused by why the expensive bidder thinks I need one on the PE Summit LE insert and where they plan to install it.

I've emailed them asking for clarification. Perhaps it's just mistake someone made while writing up the estimate.

 

[jetsam]

begreen, thanks so much for pointing me to the thread. No, this is not an unusually tall fireplace. In fact, the PE Summit LE insert just about fits in the fireplace.

I read through the link you posted and it appears that I've completely misunderstood what a Barometric Damper is. I had assumed that it's like the damper you often see in exhaust fans that prevent a backdraft from coming in when the fan is not operational. ie. I assumed that a Barometric Damper would prevent air entering from the top of the chimney down to my insert on a windy day when my fireplace wasn't being used. That is to say that it provides a barrier so that only exhaust gases can leave through the liner/chimney but outsider air cannot enter.

The discussions on the thread you posted seems to suggest that it's instead a way to provide supplementary fresh air to the fire (on the intake side) in case the fire isn't being supplied with enough air (eg. if the manual damper is turned way down). Is that correct? If that's the case, I too am confused by why the expensive bidder thinks I need one on the PE Summit LE insert and where they plan to install it.

I've emailed them asking for clarification. Perhaps it's just mistake someone made while writing up the estimate.

That's entirely incorrect. The barometric damper goes in the flue and admits room temperature air to smooth out the draft. It has zero to do with capping the chimney or regulating intake air for the stove.

Wood stoves need to maintain a higher flue temperature to avoid creosote buildup, so a barometric damper is never appropriate for them.

Like bholler said, consider switching installers if the old one is trying to put one in.

My personal opinion is that we will someday see wood stoves that use electromechanical dampers and stack temperature sensors because a narrow range of drafts will be best for max efficiency- but those stoves are a long ways off. I don't see wood stoves ever using non-motorized barometric dampers (they lack a way to shut off the room air if stack temperature falls, so there's no way to make them safe even with temperature sensors at the top of the stack).

 

[kennyp2339]

@eshwars are you sure your reading the bid right, I see your from Washington State, and I think they have a rule there that says all solid fuel appliances need to have an outside air connection (fresh air) for the fire, rather then using the homes interior air, perhaps this is whats confusing you by reading certain parts that installer might be using, although its odd to use a baro damper to regulate static air to a wood stove.

 

[begreen]

begreen, thanks so much for pointing me to the thread. No, this is not an unusually tall fireplace. In fact, the PE Summit LE insert just about fits in the fireplace.

I read through the link you posted and it appears that I've completely misunderstood what a Barometric Damper is. I had assumed that it's like the damper you often see in exhaust fans that prevent a backdraft from coming in when the fan is not operational. ie. I assumed that a Barometric Damper would prevent air entering from the top of the chimney down to my insert on a windy day when my fireplace wasn't being used. That is to say that it provides a barrier so that only exhaust gases can leave through the liner/chimney but outsider air cannot enter.

The discussions on the thread you posted seems to suggest that it's instead a way to provide supplementary fresh air to the fire (on the intake side) in case the fire isn't being supplied with enough air (eg. if the manual damper is turned way down). Is that correct? If that's the case, I too am confused by why the expensive bidder thinks I need one on the PE Summit LE insert and where they plan to install it.

I've emailed them asking for clarification. Perhaps it's just mistake someone made while writing up the estimate.

A barometric damper can be on the exhaust side of the heating appliance to regulate too strong draft. This is generally not advised for a wood stove. And a barometric damper can be used to regulate air intake. In the case of the PE Summit, the stove has a built-in barometric damper on the secondary air intake called the EBT. Does it sound like the latter may be what is being referred to?

Post a copy of the bid here so that we can see what it says.

 

[eshwars]

Last night, after reading begreen's response, I had posted a question to PE support. Here's their response. I thought it may be interesting for others:

Hi Eshwar,

A barometric damper could help control the draft of a tall chimney so that the chimney doesn’t pull too hard on the stove. Long term high draft can cause damage to the chimney liner and the fireplace insert.

A local installer who has investigated the existing system would know better what would be required for your installation.

Kindest regards,
Pacific Energy Online Support

We live in a house that's two floors and an attic. So the total height of the chimney is probably 30 ft starting from the fireplace. That's not a particularly tall chimney, right?

I'm still waiting for the installer whose bid proposed a Barometric Damper to respond clarifying why they think it's necessary. They have not actually stopped by to inspect my house.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that is a tall chimney and the Summit insert is an easy-breather. It could be that the dealer is concerned about this, but adding a barometric damper will dilute the flue gases and cool them down which can increase creosote deposits. I have never seen or read about one on an insert installation.

 

[eshwars]

Alright, I finally managed to speak to a more knowledgeable sounding person from the installer who had the Barometric Damper on their quote.

As @kennyp2339 pointed out, Washington state requires the wood burning inserts draw outside air for combustion. So apparently, they put that line item on all their bids because they count on drilling a hole in the wall for outside air, upon which they install a Barometric Damper.

But as it happens, the PE Summit LE insert has the ability to pull outside air from the ash cleanout underneath it. I happen to have an ash cleanout in our fireplace, so the rep I spoke with said that during the estimator's site visit, they will adjust the bid based on site specific details and likely remove the Barometric Damper line item.

That finally settles the confusion in my head! Thanks you all for your input and helping me ask the right questions.