Battery backup problems solved...I think

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

hd45hunt

Member
Feb 10, 2008
9
Hudson Valley NY
I do believe I found the answer to run my circulator pumps when power is out. For anyone interested, the link is http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=314&EID=14617&txtModelID=3298 . I'm no electrical genius, but they have pdf's to explain the capabilities and I used their links to find a vendor and got mine from Provantage for $219.00 plus shipping. I already have a deep cycle battery that I use on my trolling motor and will try that for starters. Will post back when it arrives and I give it a test run. I know first hand that it ain't pretty when the power goes out and the fire don't!!
 
Depending on how many pumps you want to run, you probably don't need an inverter that large. Also remember that once the power goes out and your battery backup kicks in, you need a DPDT relay that can stop the juice from the inverter backfeeding through the rest of your electrical system.
 
What kind of a relay do you use? I was going to build one myself, and yes it really isn't that hard.

Steve
 
Piker said:
Depending on how many pumps you want to run, you probably don't need an inverter that large. Also remember that once the power goes out and your battery backup kicks in, you need a DPDT relay that can stop the juice from the inverter backfeeding through the rest of your electrical system. I have been putting together battery backups for customers using just a simple junction box, a relay, a small battery charger, two fuses, and a small 400 watt inverter. It's not as technologically advanced as maybe what you are looking at, but it works well and is inexpensive compared to some of the other options out there.
Click to expand...
Regarding the relay situation, is this similar to a generator backfeeding the main line if the main breaker isn't shut off? Or will this just drain my battery real fast? I understood this unit to operate like a UPS whereas my pumps will be plugged into the inverter/charger, battery hooked to inverter and inverter plugged into standard outlet. I could be wrong, my electrical experience is adding outlets and lights, basic stuff only. Thanks for any info you can give, I do want to do this the right way.
 
HD,

Your pumps will have to have 2 lines run to them... one from whatever power source turns them on and off (ie your boiler, thermostats etc) and one from your inverter. When the power is off, you don't want to backfeed juice from the inverter through the rest of the system... just like a generator would do.
If your going to wire a circ pump that runs basically all the time, then, yes, the inverter you chose will work fine.
 
I'm interested in this system too. What I was going to do is go upstream from the junction box that has that little fusible link, break the line and install a male and female plug, and plug it back in. When I lose power I can just unplug it and plug it back into my inverter. This way the furnace controls, fan and circulator pumps are all coming off one circuit.

If you were to plug it into this UPS setup that he found how would it back feed anything?
 
Greg H said:
I'm interested in this system too. What I was going to do is go upstream from the junction box that has that little fusible link, break the line and install a male and female plug, and plug it back in. When I lose power I can just unplug it and plug it back into my inverter. This way the furnace controls, fan and circulator pumps are all coming off one circuit.

If you were to plug it into this UPS setup that he found how would it back feed anything?
Click to expand...

That is how I have mine rigged up. Thermostat ,controls. and blower all powered by inverter. One circuit.
 
If your going to plug and unplug the inverter every time the power goes out, then you don't need relays... but who is to say you will be there when the power goes out to unplug and plug?

cheers
 
Piker said:
HD,

Your pumps will have to have 2 lines run to them... one from whatever power source turns them on and off (ie your boiler, thermostats etc) and one from your inverter. When the power is off, you don't want to backfeed juice from the inverter through the rest of the system... just like a generator would do.
If your going to wire a circ pump that runs basically all the time, then, yes, the inverter you chose will work fine.

Maine

Here is the relay I used. One of these and a socket inside the junction box and your good to go. When I put mine together for customers, I put the inverter and a terminal strip right inside the box. Makes for a nice clean install. The trickle charger could go in there too if you had a big enough junction box. I think it's kind of nice to put stuff together with inexpensive common, easily replaceable parts. These relays are cheap enough that you can buy 2 and have a spare for less than what it woudl probably cost to have another one shipped later.

cheers

http://www.newark.com/36K7543/switc...ic-components-ly2-ac110-120&_requestid=274994
Click to expand...

Ok, that relay looks very usefull, now what I am not unerstanding is the inverter, it sounds like the inverter has to be on all the time with this setup. I had come up with a setup that turned the inverter on when I had a power failure.

Steve
 
There is also some loss in the relay, which will be energized while the electricity is on. Small peanuts on energy usage compared to the cost of overheating and boiling over your gasser.

cheers
 
Exactly. My current method is BFMI. (brute force, massive ignorance) and would require me to be home.
Thats why I liked that auto transfering set up. If everything is plugged into the inverter then its powered by house current until the power goes out, then it switches to battery but its only powering the one circiut thats plugged into it, and can't backfeed anything. I've got a couple of deep discharge batteries I use for camping in the summer.

Something I was going to do and I'll post the results when I do, is take my "kill a watt" meter and plug the boiler into it to get a max power consumption and power useage over a typical period. Should be interesting

I don't know why I bother though. The fan would shut off anyway and I've got an automag for a heat dump. I bought a 7500 watt (13,500 watts surge) generator 5 years ago and haven't lost power for more than 30 minutes since. But its nice to have gadgets.
 
Got a question for someone with a little more electrical know-how than I. Is there a way that I can test this inverter/charger set up (700W 12V DC to AC Inverter with Automatic 20-Amp Charger) once I get it hooked up to see if it is already equipped with an internal relay once I get it installed. Mine wood boiler and circ pump are installed in my garage. Could I kill the main breaker in my garage and then put a meter on an adjacent outlet to see if I am getting any residual juice in the garage since I would have isolated the garage by killing the main? Hope that makes sense. I just think this inverter is a pretty well built/name brand item and would think this would be something they addressed as the company makes UPS's to power computer servers and other high dollar items. This one is just the least expensive, smallest item they make. When it gets here, I will definetely try this.
 
The description on the website says "auto transfer switching option." My guess is this inverter/backup is meant to be plugged into a wall to run the charger and to detect the presence of line voltage to the structure. Once the power goes out, the relays switch over and start sending "inverted juice" to whatever is plugged into it. There will be no backfeed as long as what is plugged into the inverter is ONLY plugged into the inverter and nothing else.



cheers
 
Piker said:
The description on the website says "auto transfer switching option." My guess is this inverter/backup is meant to be plugged into a wall to run the charger and to detect the presence of line voltage to the structure. Once the power goes out, the relays switch over and start sending "inverted juice" to whatever is plugged into it. There will be no backfeed as long as what is plugged into the inverter is ONLY plugged into the inverter and nothing else.

basically, it depends on how you wire this thing as to whether or not you backfeed power to the rest of the system. If you are going to be putting this backup on a pump that will run 24/7, then you just plug the pump into the inverter and your done. If, on the other hand, that pump needs to be able to turn on and off while the boiler is operating under normal use, you need to wire it differently, and use relays to prevent backflow.

Without knowing exactly how you plan on hooking this thing up, it's difficult to know whether you will have a problem or not.

I stand ready to assist you if you need help. Just explain a little more about how you will hook the thing up.

cheers
Click to expand...
I think you already answered my question as my circulator runs 24/7 moving water from the wood boiler to my oil boiler and onto the zones. The residual heat from the stove also serves to heat my garage (which is uninsulated). I am also installing a dump zone in the garage consisting of a circulator receiving power from a strap on aquastat, piped to several lengths of baseboard in the garage. When the temp gets to say 190 or 195, the aquastat would send power to the circulator (w/check valve) and dump heat into the otherwise cold baseboard. This would immediately return to the wood boiler as the supply and return are right in the garage and the water would not have to contend with going all the way underground to the house to cool the boiler if too hot. I was planning on also plugging this into the inverter. Both circulators are grundfos UPS15-58 FC super brute pumps, which state they draw .75a on high speed and .55a on low speed. Hope that explains my setup a little better. Thanks for the info
 
WIthout actually seeing what you going to do... it sounds like you have a handle on it.

if you have any other questions, let me know and I will see what I can do for you.

cheers
 
how about this item...i know its a little big for just running a circulator, but seems like it has auto switchover and battery charging.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1000-2000-Watt-Power-Inverter-with-Built-in-Charger_W0QQitemZ250332816153QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCar_Electronics_Parts_Accessories?hash=item250332816153&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1234|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318
 
That looks like it would do the same thing and about 30 bucks cheaper. I already ordered the Tripplite and it should be here Monday. I'll do some tests next week and post the results.
 
hd45hunt said:
That looks like it would do the same thing and about 30 bucks cheaper. I already ordered the Tripplite and it should be here Monday. I'll do some tests next week and post the results.
Click to expand...
Anybody out there using a Tripplite inverter/charger/transfer switch? I just ordered one today, hope it's a decent piece of equipment. The last two power failures and more ICE in the forecast drove me over the edge.
 
Which one did you get? The 750 or the 1250? I've been eyeing the APS1250 but $384 is a bit more than I can swing right now.
 
Greg H said:
Which one did you get? The 750 or the 1250? I've been eyeing the APS1250 but $384 is a bit more than I can swing right now.
Click to expand...
The 750 is plenty more than my system requires, so that's what I ordered. With two large marine batteries I hope I'll be safe. Cost was $227 including shipping. After the last two power outages and all the possible damages running through my mind it seems cheap. My system isn't too prone to overheat, but 30+ MPH wind for over four hours makes for a hot fire at -30 wind chills. I couldn't decide what to worry about, boiling or possibility of lines to house freezing. I figure if the power outage is really long I can run wires to my car to charge low batteries.
 
Where did you get it? Thats the best price I've seen so far. I'm running my system through a kill-o-watt meter and it's showing that with everything running at once I could approach 600 watts, so I'm thinking the 1250 would give me some margin for error.
 
Greg H said:
Where did you get it? Thats the best price I've seen so far. I'm running my system through a kill-o-watt meter and it's showing that with everything running at once I could approach 600 watts, so I'm thinking the 1250 would give me some margin for error.
Click to expand...
PROVANTAGE
 
I like the look of these tripplite units from provantage. It is nice to see that they factored in the start up surge of power and can accommodate up to 200% the continuous rating in short bursts for it. That means you don't have to oversize them just to meet this need. I may consider getting one in the spring with my tax return. I assume from what was mentioned above you could must keep the unit going off of a car nearly indefinitely? In other words it could supply power for many days if a car was recharging it? Very interesting...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom
Back