Boiler overflowing after new installation

[PaulB12345]

Hi.
Today I started to fill up our new E-classic boiler with water.
The boiler was hooked up by the dealer to the existing system.
The e-classic is a non-pressurized boiler.
It is hooked up directly to a pressurized system - i.e. no heat exchanger.
The system is in effect being depressurized.

Problem is that after opening the valves that can connect the two systems, the eclassic is overflowing.

I checked on central boilers web site.
It looks like system is hooked up the way they suggest.

Any thoughts on what the problems is?

 

[stee6043]

Did you know they were connecting a non-pressurized system to a pressurized system? Didn't your installer/dealer run the boiler before he left? They didn't even turn the system on to check pumps?

I'm not sure how this would work without a heat exchanger. I sure hope you didn't make final payment to the dealer without them showing you the unit and install works...

 

[kabbott]

Yikes :shut:

 

[DaveBP]

I am hearing in the back of my mind one of the Car Talk guys saying "Booo...ooo...oooo...gus!"

 

[rowerwet]

you need to check that the fill valve for the old pressurized system in the house is off, the valve is spring loaded and keeps the water pressure in the house system at 25 psi or so. you can find this valve on the boiler connection to your domestic water pipes, up stream of this valve should be a shut off.... shut it off.
Then make sure you don't have any auto bleeders in the system, normal pressurized systems will have one on the air remover for the system so you need to remove it or figure out how to screw it all the way closed, also check each baseboard or radiator for auto bleeders as well.
If the overflow happened on fire up you may just be seeing thermal expansion as all those gallons expand to 180 or so.
One other thing to look at, there was a guy on here last fall with a CB Maxim also installed depressurized house, he couldn't keep the water from coming out of the boiler, after repositioning the boiler to a closer lever to the house it finally turned out that he had two circs pumping into the boiler and only one pump pumping out of the boiler.

 

[flyingcow]

first thought, as said, fill valve. Coincidentally, just overflowed my system(30 minutes ago) while bleeding out air out of my zones. BUT I had my fill valve opened up. Flipped it off, no more flooding.
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--

I've seen a few of these hooked up the way you describe. Worked ok.

 

[PaulB12345]

ok shut off the auto fill valve , which shut down our other furnaces because now there is no pressure in the system other than the 5 pounds from the pumps . its getting to temp but one problem i see is now is i dont think the other boilers we were going to use for back up are going to work because of no pressure (am i right to assume this?) if so how would i fix this? other than getting an exchanger thanks for any help.. Paul

 

[flyingcow]

I'm not paying for damages....but shut off ball valves to OWB. Than stand there and open fill valve, and wait for a big splash. Close fill valve, the regular furnace should fire back up. It should have a low water shut off. Go to bed. And start over tomorrow. Hopefully, you don't have air blockage in your zones in your house. If you do, shut off everything, grab an extra blanket and go to bed.

 

[kabbott]

I am not keen on the idea of hooking an open system to an existing closed system. It can be done and in some cases will work fine but
if it was mine I would use a flat plate heat exchanger. If you run it open you may have problems with air for one thing not to mention oxygen in the
system.Is the OWB higher than the rest of the system or at least higher than the existing boiler.

 

[rowerwet]

ok shut off the auto fill valve , which shut down our other furnaces because now there is no pressure in the system other than the 5 pounds from the pumps . its getting to temp but one problem i see is now is i dont think the other boilers we were going to use for back up are going to work because of no pressure (am i right to assume this?) if so how would i fix this? other than getting an exchanger thanks for any help.. Paul

going to an open system shouldn't shut down your gas boiler, unless it is very different from an oil boiler. My sister uses an OWB and it is an open system, there wasn't anything that needed to be done to the oil boiler, it comes on when the wood boiler is too cold and the OWB is the heat the rest of the time. If your gas boiler monitors pressure instead of water level, your dealer/installer needs to fix his mistake and install a flat plate HX at cost for you.
Your house can be as high as you like above the OWB, as long as you don't have a leak in the house the water doesn't know how high above the boiler it is, and it will help keep the pumps on the OWB from cavitating.
Running an open system isn't a problem like people think as all CB must have water treatment and test it to keep the level of protection up.
the best way to get rid of air locks is to put a shut off at each end of each zone, you can then use the circulator pump to purge each zone at a time and for future repairs you can shut off the zones you aren't going to touch. get some of those ball valve sharkbites and put them in line for the easiest install.

 

[stee6043]

I am not keen on the idea of hooking an open system to an existing closed system. It can be done and in some cases will work fine but
if it was mine I would use a flat plate heat exchanger. If you run it open you may have problems with air for one thing not to mention oxygen in the
system.Is the OWB higher than the rest of the system or at least higher than the existing boiler.

+1. I think this thread is a bit of an eye opener on many levels. First and foremost I can't believe a DEALER would complete an install on a brand new boiler and walk away without even testing the unit. Second, I think there will be warranty implications for your existing closed system (if it is still in warranty) if you try to run it connected to an open system.

That being said - I'm sure you can make it work. In my opinion you should get your dealer back in asap. I'd go with a flat plate HX and separate the systems....but that's just me.

 

[PaulB12345]

thanks for the input , i have since unhooked the outdoor wood boiler and repressurized our oil boiler till the guy who installed it can come back and make it work right . i still think it should be hooked up serparate also.

 

[kabbott]

ok shut off the auto fill valve , which shut down our other furnaces because now there is no pressure in the system other than the 5 pounds from the pumps . its getting to temp but one problem i see is now is i dont think the other boilers we were going to use for back up are going to work because of no pressure (am i right to assume this?) if so how would i fix this? other than getting an exchanger thanks for any help.. Paul

going to an open system shouldn't shut down your gas boiler, unless it is very different from an oil boiler. My sister uses an OWB and it is an open system, there wasn't anything that needed to be done to the oil boiler, it comes on when the wood boiler is too cold and the OWB is the heat the rest of the time. If your gas boiler monitors pressure instead of water level, your dealer/installer needs to fix his mistake and install a flat plate HX at cost for you.
Your house can be as high as you like above the OWB, as long as you don't have a leak in the house the water doesn't know how high above the boiler it is, and it will help keep the pumps on the OWB from cavitating.
Running an open system isn't a problem like people think as all CB must have water treatment and test it to keep the level of protection up.
the best way to get rid of air locks is to put a shut off at each end of each zone, you can then use the circulator pump to purge each zone at a time and for future repairs you can shut off the zones you aren't going to touch. get some of those ball valve sharkbites and put them in line for the easiest install.

Certainly not saying it won't work but if the CB is lower than the rest of the system than everything must be absolutely airtight. Just my preference I guess but
I like the idea of having them isolated. If somthing happens to one they both go down and an airlock leading to frozen pipes would not be fun. From a performance
standpoint running it as it is now is better really as long as you can keep the air under control.

 

[PaulB12345]

ok another question what heat exchanger can i get to work with this i want to keep our oil fired boiler water seperate from our outdoor boiler water? i dont want to contaminate our floor heat.

 

[rowerwet]

your CB dealer/installer could sell you a marked up flat plate HX from his stock, mine wanted almost 3 times what I found mine for on Ebay. I bought mine from Freeheat4U on ebay, a lot of people on here have had good results from them. you will need a good idea of how many BTU you need, your best bet is to look at the btu rating of your house boiler and get a HX that is rated the same or (better) higher.
The big difference in HX is size of the plates 5"X 12" is a good size and then the number of plates gives you more surface area to exchange heat. The other big area is how large the threaded bungs are on the HX, 1" min and over 1" is better. I have a 20 plate 5X12" my oil boiler is only rated for 50k btu and according to the chart on the ebay listing 20 plates equals 5 square feet of exchange area and that is good for 70k btu or something like that. I got 1" bungs as my thermopex is 1", if you have bigger you should get bigger.
At the time I got my HX I read quite a few threads that said my calculations were optomistic, but I figured I could add another 20 plate and still be ahead on my money over what my dealer could sell me. I am on my second year with this set up and don't have any problems keeping up with the house, the only time it seemed a little slow was when I cam back after being away for a week at Christmas and it took over an hour to get the house up to 60 from 50, but the oil boiler never came on so I guess it was ok.