The firewood kilns operate at around 220 degrees and don't use steam spray because they don't have to be worried about checking like the lumber guys. They can kick oak down to 20 percent in around 30 or so hours.
Burn tubes warped, fell out of the stove in the bottem of the box!
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MSG, I think it is up to you.....
This is so easy, I wonder why folks don't do it. 20 years ago we printed up a simple one page piece of paper called "Wood Burning Tips" and gave it to each customer with the stove. Cost? About 2 cents - Value: Priceless!
Let's face it - most people don't read manuals...I don't! And, even if they did, manuals are not exactly written in plain English...they are written for UL and for Lawyers.
In most cases, these problems can be weeded out during the sale - I've had a lot of folks tell me they wanted to burn scraps...I would sell them a stove that could take it...and also tell them to mix 50/50 with regular wood logs.
This is so easy, I wonder why folks don't do it. 20 years ago we printed up a simple one page piece of paper called "Wood Burning Tips" and gave it to each customer with the stove. Cost? About 2 cents - Value: Priceless!
Let's face it - most people don't read manuals...I don't! And, even if they did, manuals are not exactly written in plain English...they are written for UL and for Lawyers.
In most cases, these problems can be weeded out during the sale - I've had a lot of folks tell me they wanted to burn scraps...I would sell them a stove that could take it...and also tell them to mix 50/50 with regular wood logs.
generaly speaking, we all talk about what the stoves can and cant do. I dont tell every single person to not burn scraps. I think i will take your idea and type of a general woodburning FAQ. Manuals do clearly state what the stove is intended to burn, no leagle gibberish or anything. What type of stove do you think can take burning scraps? i can rule out steel ones.
MountainStoveGuy said:
This was a long time ago, and actually steel stoves back then could take the heat...of course, we even had utility stoves like Shenedoah.... Even simple heavy cast stoves like the Upland could take quite a licking. I had one guy who burned particle board (not with my permission!) and he only destroyed replaceable inner liners.
You can use some parts of this article- I think it contains some parts of my orginal:
https://www.hearth.com/what/tending.html
Notice it says:
Good Wood ! - First of all. don't even start unless you have good seasoned firewood of mixed sizes and types. Unseasoned wood or wet wood will only cause frustration. Also, keep a good supply of firestarters and kindling handy...it can be very aggravating attempting to start a fire without small, dry kindling.
BTW, just for comparsion, when I bought a hot tub last year, the place was very thorough in educating us about virtually every aspect of it, including follow up phone calls to check water chemistry, careful explanation of the way to do the electric circuit and other care and feeding. They gave us a bunch of sheets like I mentioned (their own info sheets)....
Based on my follow up conversations they had a certain protocol - like the sales person made certain you got certain info and the delivery guys made certain you had other info and they pointed out all the chemicals and accessories and how to use them.
Note- we knew what we wanted on this purchase, and simply went in a ordered it...so we didn't need model and brand direction.
Based on my follow up conversations they had a certain protocol - like the sales person made certain you got certain info and the delivery guys made certain you had other info and they pointed out all the chemicals and accessories and how to use them.
Note- we knew what we wanted on this purchase, and simply went in a ordered it...so we didn't need model and brand direction.
If you are a licensed gun salesman and some one buys a gun from you. And he has the right permit and hunter saftey course and what ever the state requires. He says he knows how to saftely use it. He goes home and puts a round into his leg buy accident because he didn't realy know what he was doing. It's the salesmans fault. Just like the guy who cooked his stove in MSGs case.
just my 2 cents
just my 2 cents
earthharvester said:
In neither case is it the salesperson fault. But how about a win-win situation where the gun dealertells the fool how to use the safety?
Personal service is one of the main advantages stove dealers have over big boxes and internet sales. Therefore, it is also a win-win for them to spend 3 minutes extra and give them a piece of paper or a short course. No, it will not prevent melted stoves in all cases, but it will help.
The Hot Tub place didn't have to do all that jazz for me - but they probably also saved themselves hassle - an educated customer is always an advantage...
I should ask the members here to contribute to a great FAQ about woodburning, one that i can print out for customers, and one for the wikki!?
Webmaster said:
One more question re new stoves, how about FATWOOD to get a fire started? That stuff seems to kick off a lot of thick black smoke.
Also, is the stuff you buy at the grocery or hardware store really FATWOOD?
There are severl sources of fatwood, some are better then otheres. Fatwood comes from stups of loplolly pine trees in the south, when the trees die, all the sap runs down and settles in the trunk, what you are left with is a super impregnated tree trunk. Fat wood is little pieces of this trunk. The more pitch the fatwood has, the better it is as a firestarter. Not all fatwood is that great, some of the best comes out of georgia, some of the worse comes out of mexico.
This post realy belongs over on the other thread, im going to copy it.
This post realy belongs over on the other thread, im going to copy it.
Very interesting thread....and I didn't know what "fatwood" was until now. After reading a bit of the Hearth Wiki on "What not to burn" I was kind of shocked. I knew of the arsenic-pressure treated wood and the gift wrap before, but I burn a tiny bit of cardboard and cereal boxes as kindling and I have used a small, perhaps 4" square chunk of construction lumber I got scraps from as kindling. I never have tried to stuff the wood stove with 2x4's though
Jay
Jay
MSG - if you still have the photos of that overfired stove, I'd consider making some sort of poster to hang in your showroom about what NOT to do. Maybe put it near the stove thermometers
My opinion - the danger of construction lumber is not just it's moisture content. hardwood will air dry to ~8 % moisture content given enough time too. This is typical for lumber used for woodworking - furniture construction etc. construction lumber on the other hand is also quick burning softwood and is usually in small, regular sized "sticks" - lots and lots of surface area per LB of wood.
I am burning all sorts of scraps in my stove. hardwood scraps, construction lumber scraps, even shavings from my lathe. But ONLY when I am there watching it, and ONLY a couple of handfulls at a time. Frankly the stuff burns so fast I can't imagine trying to keep feeding it to a stove. Big splits of cordwood are the way to go!
My opinion - the danger of construction lumber is not just it's moisture content. hardwood will air dry to ~8 % moisture content given enough time too. This is typical for lumber used for woodworking - furniture construction etc. construction lumber on the other hand is also quick burning softwood and is usually in small, regular sized "sticks" - lots and lots of surface area per LB of wood.
I am burning all sorts of scraps in my stove. hardwood scraps, construction lumber scraps, even shavings from my lathe. But ONLY when I am there watching it, and ONLY a couple of handfulls at a time. Frankly the stuff burns so fast I can't imagine trying to keep feeding it to a stove. Big splits of cordwood are the way to go!
MountainStoveGuy said:
tell the guy you know whose at fault..then give him a hand-mirror......
Dave, your right. Im a crap salesperson. its up to me to tell each and every customer how to use and operate there stove. Consumers have no personal responsibility. We professionals have the "duty" to make shure we hold every ones hand. Every stove goes out of here with a thermometer and a instruction manual. When they check out they are told to read it. If they dont, not my problem. I guess i should come to there house and teach them how to make a fire too, becuase there new to woodburning, (which i did friday night) Dave, dont hijack this thread with this baloney. If you have information reguarding personal experences burning construction lumber, fine. The "how do i deal with customers" thread is over.[/quote]
Frankly, I don't trust salesmen to educate me. I'm the guy who does read the manaul. I'm the guy who'll talk to 10 different people before making a decision. If this angry customer MSG had failed to educate himself, then that's his fault. No one handed me my education on any subject, from business to welding I had to learn and educate myself.
To me the truly sad aspect of this whole scenario is the customers anger. There are better things in life to worry about buddy. And coming in with attitude and leaving with one, yeah, that's going to make MSG really want to help you now. I don't know MSG personally, but I suspect that he'd be much more helpful if the customer had come in and asked why the tubes failed, and then ask what can be done to fix the problem. Anger solves nothing. Oh and by the way, neither does taking the guy behind the barn or kickin' his arse or any of those other juvenile ideas.
And here's what my owner's manual states:
Burn only dry, well-seasoned wood for maximum heat output. In some states it is illegal to burn wet wood
or anything other than clean, dry wood products.
Burn driftwood or wood that has been in salt water. This includes some mill ends and scrap
lumber that has been floated in salt water on the way to the mill. (This will void your warranty.)
That's it. No mention of any lumber, plywood, PT, etc. No mention of technique or how to do so properly without destroying your stove. So without Hearth and reading all these threads and talking to the pros, I wouldn't know half as much as I do now. Thanks fellas.
-Kevin
To me the truly sad aspect of this whole scenario is the customers anger. There are better things in life to worry about buddy. And coming in with attitude and leaving with one, yeah, that's going to make MSG really want to help you now. I don't know MSG personally, but I suspect that he'd be much more helpful if the customer had come in and asked why the tubes failed, and then ask what can be done to fix the problem. Anger solves nothing. Oh and by the way, neither does taking the guy behind the barn or kickin' his arse or any of those other juvenile ideas.
And here's what my owner's manual states:
Burn only dry, well-seasoned wood for maximum heat output. In some states it is illegal to burn wet wood
or anything other than clean, dry wood products.
Burn driftwood or wood that has been in salt water. This includes some mill ends and scrap
lumber that has been floated in salt water on the way to the mill. (This will void your warranty.)
That's it. No mention of any lumber, plywood, PT, etc. No mention of technique or how to do so properly without destroying your stove. So without Hearth and reading all these threads and talking to the pros, I wouldn't know half as much as I do now. Thanks fellas.
-Kevin
wow- Polarizing subject!
How about this? The dealer, every once and awhile, holds seminars after hours, maybe an hour or two long, on different subjects, like Woodburning101, How to clean your pellet stove, CoalBurning101, etc? Maybe have coffee and tofu (kidding), more thinking of coffee and a rotgut pizza or 3, etc. What do you folks think of that idea? Any other ideas for topics for seminar? Thanks.
How about this? The dealer, every once and awhile, holds seminars after hours, maybe an hour or two long, on different subjects, like Woodburning101, How to clean your pellet stove, CoalBurning101, etc? Maybe have coffee and tofu (kidding), more thinking of coffee and a rotgut pizza or 3, etc. What do you folks think of that idea? Any other ideas for topics for seminar? Thanks.
HarryBack said:
It is an excellent idea. Ya don't even need to feed'em. With stove manufactuer's publishing complete wood burning instructions like 1. Stack up some kindling and smaller pieces of wood. 2. When it burns down to coals load the stove with larger pieces of wood. 3. After the wood is burning adjust the temperature. 4. If the stove is glowing red you are overfiring. 5. Have a nice day. Ya damn right people would come to mini-classes. Stove owners and non-owners alike.
And the ones that don't have stoves would get more comfortable about buying one. And believe it or not there will be two or three that would feel guilty about buying a stove from anybody but you after they attended and learned a few things. About the same ratio as any cold sales calls.
There are a lot of potential stove owners out there that have never and will never find hearth.com. And in lot of ways if they become dependent on you, that ain't a bad thing at all.
here is a link to what we post on our website for building a fire, this one applies to non-cat units, we have one for cat stoves as well. guys if you can use it , feel free, if you have suggestions for it im all ears. hope this is helpful
mike http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/BuildingNonCatalyticFire.pdf
mike http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/BuildingNonCatalyticFire.pdf
earthharvester said:
SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW DOWN , unless you forgot a ? somewhere...............?
So if Joe Cementhead puts a .38 in his leg its Mikes Gun Shop AND Smith and Wessons fault because Joe screwed up?
Better tell those chainsaw manufacturers to start selling their saws with ALL the safety equipment, including ear protection. Some boob might run the saw a few years and go deaf, then get on a plane and go crying to Sweden.
Consumers need to educate themselves.
Do the families of loved ones killed in accidents chase down Ford, Dodge, Chevy, Toyota etc because they dont design cars that avoid accidents all by themselves?
Hopefully they werent drunk too, then they could chase down Jim Beam or better yet the huge coffers of Budweiser as well.
ANYONE that puts an iron box in a building made of wood and puts a fire inside it better damn well be educated as to what the consequences of improper use are.
Next thing you know they will put DO NOT DRINK on paint cans :roll:
MSG
Heres a quickie FAQ (with answers)
Can I burn treated lumber?
Only if you want to die an early death
Can I burn flooring and construction lumber?
In very limited amounts
Should I use a thermometer?
Theres one on your gas/electric stove isnt there?
Have you seen my baseball?
Heres your sign
It is not a dealer's legal responsibility to train his customers, but I would have had a much higher opinion of my dealer if he offered a 30 minute seminar on Saturday mornings on how to start and tend a wood fire. Hell, he could open it to the public and just imagine the additional folks who might come in.
I have friends who can never have a decent fire in their fireplace for many of the common reasons. Telling them is worthless, showing them is everything. I don't expect a dealerto do this, but would be darn impressed by one that did. I like a business that goes the extra mile. It is kinda like Lowes offering those weekend sessions on how to lay tile, repair sheetrock, paint, etc.
I have friends who can never have a decent fire in their fireplace for many of the common reasons. Telling them is worthless, showing them is everything. I don't expect a dealerto do this, but would be darn impressed by one that did. I like a business that goes the extra mile. It is kinda like Lowes offering those weekend sessions on how to lay tile, repair sheetrock, paint, etc.
wrenchmonster said:
Wrench,
I think you meant to say "DON'T burn driftwood or wood that has been in salt water. This includes some mill ends and scrap
lumber that has been floated in salt water on the way to the mill. (This will void your warranty.)"
You said "burn driftwood.....etc"
earthharvester said:
Earthharvester,
Surely you jest??? No....really.....tell us you don't believe what you wrote and that you're kidding?? Because if you really believe what you wrote, here's the "brave new world according to earthharvester" that we're faced with.......a world in which the following happens:
1) Some idiot buys a chainsaw, doesn't read the manual that says chains are sharp, runs his hand over the chain and gets cut and sues............and, according to your "brave new world", it's Huskys fault............. wrong answer!
2) Same or similar idiot buys a car, marginally passed drivers ed and "forgets" which is the gas vs which is the brake....pushes on the gas instead of the brake, runs over a group of people killing 2 of them, then sues the auto maker claiming it's their fault........wrong answer!
3) Same or similar idiot buys a stove, fails to read the manual which clearly says "don't burn lumber"....burns lumber anyway, then walks into MSG's store and "rants" and demands a new stove......wrong answer.......do not pass go, do not collect $200.....LOL
When I hear such illogical, two things come to mind:
1) A saying we had in the military when people came looking for scape goats: "search for the guilty and punish the innocent".....
2) A saying by John Wayne: "life's tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid"...... Note: not saying your stupid just that people in general also have responsibilities and when they/we/you/I fail to exercise that responsibility and then things go wrong..well.....too bad but then we also can't come looking for a fall guy......
MountainStoveGuy said:
MSG,
Chill out...LOL......you overreacted..... He wasn't calling you a bad salesperson but rather just telling you, in general, what he expects from a salesperson. We don't know what advise you initially gave this customer when you sold him the stove but your response indicates you're feeling guilty about something when in reality, the customer had a responsibility to read the manual which would have said to NOT burn lumber.......
im not in the mood to be psycho-analized cast. I dont feel guilty about anything. this thread was started after a rough day at work some time ago. I havent even thought about it. Dave was irritating me at that time, and im sure i overreacted.
castiron said:
LOL, sorry, yes you are correct. The driftwood statement was made under a heading of DO'S and DONT'S obviously under dont's. Although I understand the satement, I found it lacking any clarification. What about mill ends that have been floating in fresh water? And so on.
-Kevin
MountainStoveGuy said:
MSG,
Not being psycho analyzed......your own reaction (not my "analyzing") to his comment about what he expects from a salesperson, for some reason perturbed you. I think it was because after listening to him list what he expected, that you realized you may not have passed all that same info onto the idiot who over-temped his stove. That said, I agree with you that you can't "hold the hand" of each customer and do everything for him/her and that (especially in this case) the customer had an obligation to read the manual so not your fault. Later.
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