Burning oil

[EatenByLimestone]

This year, in the new house, I haven't been burning a good deal of wood. It's drying out for another year. Next year it will be perfect! Anyway, I'm running the boiler for heat.

Early December they filled the tank and the price was just under $3/gal. It looks like prices are higher now. What is to stop me from using regular pump diesel? It's running $3.11 now and if the price is lower... What about kerosene?

Matt

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I just called the oil company and the price is $2.80 something so this wouldn't be needed yet, but maybe for future info...

Matt

 

[velvetfoot]

It's totally crazy that diesel, with its road taxes, would be more than heating oil.
I don't know if they cut heating fuel with kero.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Polsinello, local to you over in Rens cty.

Matt

 

[velvetfoot]

I usually call around for the lowest price.
I try to go for the smaller guy, since my opinion is their overhead is low.
They just fill their trucks at the Port.
Interesting though, last time I did that the price increase in the several days it took to deliver it.

 

[Fred61]

I don't use enough oil to warrant having to purchase the minimum delivery so periodically I stop at the off-road diesel pump and fill up a 5 gallon can. This gives me enough oil to exercise the burner and provide DHW in the non- heating season.

 

[pybyr]

From what I understand, off-road diesel and #2 heating oil are close enough as makes no difference, especially if you're going to use the off-road in a heating applicance.

Kero is usually more expensive than either of the others, and has less lubricity than the others = more wear on oil burners' fuel pumps.

Usually, heating oil delivered in quantity is lower than off road diesel at the pump- and Kero is usually more expensive than either of the others.

I still don't get how diesel now costs more than gasoline (in comparison to how it used to be the opposite), given the comparative simplicity of refining it.

 

[Fred61]

I still don't get how diesel now costs more than gasoline (in comparison to how it used to be the opposite), given the comparative simplicity of refining it.

I don't know how old you are but I can remember diesel at 18 cents a gallon. I pumped alot of it when I was a petrolium transfer technician.

I was told that without taxes, diesel is more expensive because there is more oil in a gallon of it than there is in gasoline because of all the additives there are in the latter. Believe that?

 

[pybyr]

I still don't get how diesel now costs more than gasoline (in comparison to how it used to be the opposite), given the comparative simplicity of refining it.

I don't know how old you are but I can remember diesel at 18 cents a gallon. I pumped alot of it when I was a petrolium transfer technician.

I was told that without taxes, diesel is more expensive because there is more oil in a gallon of it than there is in gasoline because of all the additives there are in the latter. Believe that?

Wow-- I've heard a lot of excuses for the pricing, but that's a new one. It does indeed have more BTUs per gallon, but it's incredibly easy to refine compared to gasoline.

I vaguely remember the days of prices like you mention, but it was before I was actually driving.

 

[Gooserider]

Don't know if it's completely true, but what I've been told is that when they design a refinery, they set it up to produce a certain ratio of output products i.e. X% of product A, Y% product B, etc., and once set up, it is very difficult to shift the output percentages more than a little bit. Traditionally, the EU has used a lot higher percentage of diesel than the US, so their refineries are designed to do about a 50-50 mix of diesel and gas... OTOH, the US has had a much greater demand for gasoline, so US refineries have been built to do something like 90-10 gasoline - diesel... When the demand for diesel went up so much in recent years, coupled with the gov't / environmental restrictions on building new, or significantly reworking old, refineries, we have simply gotten into a supply / demand situation, where the demand has increased, and the supply hasn't, so the price goes up... Simple as that...

Gooserider

 

[DBoon]

The refineries can definitely adjust output to diesel, heating oil, gasoline, etc. as demand permits, but it takes some time and is not necessarily simple (from my limited understanding). We can end up importing gasoline to Europe or exporting diesel to Europe when the demand here is out of whack.

My understanding is that diesel and #2 heating oil are the exact same thing except for the dye and the tax. It's "legal" to use diesel in your boiler since that is taxed higher, but not legal to use undyed #2 heating oil in a vehicle since that is taxed less. No one is going to go after anyone for a five gallon pail, but if you started filling your vehicle from your heating oil tank, someone might take notice.

 

[bigbobs]

The refineries can definitely adjust output to diesel, heating oil, gasoline, etc. as demand permits, but it takes some time and is not necessarily simple (from my limited understanding). We can end up importing gasoline to Europe or exporting diesel to Europe when the demand here is out of whack.

My understanding is that diesel and #2 heating oil are the exact same thing except for the dye and the tax. It's "legal" to use diesel in your boiler since that is taxed higher, but not legal to use undyed #2 heating oil in a vehicle since that is taxed less. No one is going to go after anyone for a five gallon pail, but if you started filling your vehicle from your heating oil tank, someone might take notice.

Do not use high sulfur fuel in a newer diesel engine, you will ruin the injection system and it will cost you big bucks to repair. The fine for using off road fuel in an on road situation is $25,000, good reason to use the clear fuel on road. Off road is now ultra low sulphur also. Heating oil still has lots of sulfur in it.

 

[Mid Michigan]

Very interesting subject. I watch a documentary with the Ex-CEO of Shell. In a nut shell a lot depends on where the crude is coming from. There are only so many gallons of diesel and gasoline in a barrel of oil. The high the quality the more you can refine out. He said you can always get more gasoline out of a barrel than diesel. The interesting part to me was he said there never was a gasoline shortage but a diesel shortage. Thus forcing the price of diesel up. The tanks of gasoline were always full because they always got more gasoline when they are processing a barrel of crude. I found it fascinating that there is not a shortage of gas yet the price goes up. It is all tied together. Still have to pay for the whole barrel when you only want to use a % of it to make diesel. If we refined a higher quality of crude and thus raise the % of diesel that can be processed out of a barrel of oil thing would be better. More diesel, less gas, and that would help the price go down. Apparently the higher quality of crude is here in US. Who knows who to believe, I guess if we think we can do it cheaper we can sink a well in the back yard and give it a try.

 

[Fred61]

The refineries can definitely adjust output to diesel, heating oil, gasoline, etc. as demand permits, but it takes some time and is not necessarily simple (from my limited understanding). We can end up importing gasoline to Europe or exporting diesel to Europe when the demand here is out of whack.

My understanding is that diesel and #2 heating oil are the exact same thing except for the dye and the tax. It's "legal" to use diesel in your boiler since that is taxed higher, but not legal to use undyed #2 heating oil in a vehicle since that is taxed less. No one is going to go after anyone for a five gallon pail, but if you started filling your vehicle from your heating oil tank, someone might take notice.

Do not use high sulfur fuel in a newer diesel engine, you will ruin the injection system and it will cost you big bucks to repair. The fine for using off road fuel in an on road situation is $25,000, good reason to use the clear fuel on road. Off road is now ultra low sulphur also. Heating oil still has lots of sulfur in it.

Perhaps that's why my oil burner seems to run smoother with off road. I thought it was my imagination!

 

[pybyr]

Very interesting subject. I watch a documentary with the Ex-CEO of Shell. In a nut shell a lot depends on where the crude is coming from. There are only so many gallons of diesel and gasoline in a barrel of oil. The high the quality the more you can refine out. He said you can always get more gasoline out of a barrel than diesel. The interesting part to me was he said there never was a gasoline shortage but a diesel shortage. Thus forcing the price of diesel up. The tanks of gasoline were always full because they always got more gasoline when they are processing a barrel of crude. I found it fascinating that there is not a shortage of gas yet the price goes up. It is all tied together. Still have to pay for the whole barrel when you only want to use a % of it to make diesel. If we refined a higher quality of crude and thus raise the % of diesel that can be processed out of a barrel of oil thing would be better. More diesel, less gas, and that would help the price go down. Apparently the higher quality of crude is here in US. Who knows who to believe, I guess if we think we can do it cheaper we can sink a well in the back yard and give it a try.

If you read up on the chemistry of refining, both gasoline and diesel come in large part from 'cracking' of heavier/thicker hydrocarbon components of the crude; what proportions you get of each mostly has to do with the particulars of the catalysts, temperatures, etc., used to do the cracking.

Either way, diesel is pretty simple stuff; gasoline is a much more complex mix of a number of hydrocarbons to get the right characteristics. Old tractors were often set up with an option to run on kerosene once warmed up, as it was cheaper than gasoline.

A lot of the crude used in the US is relatively high sulfur, which is what has made it a chore for the implementation of low sulfur; apparently a lot of the crude used in Europe is lower sulfur to begin with- part of why Europe was ahead of the US.

My own sense is that diesel and heating oil are used for purposes that have less option to cut back than peoples' driving habits, thus allowing the suppliers to hold the price higher without consumers cutting back as far.

 

[RowCropRenegade]

There's also 30% more energy in a gallon of diesel than gasoline. Gasoline I believe is more difficult to refine than diesel. No difference at all between farm diesel (high sulfer) and heating oil. I actually wanted to get crazy this heating season. I had them blend 20% bio diesel into our mix. Main concern was gelling in the tank. I have been running 15%, cranking it up each year. I also treat for algae. Unbelieveable a creature can live in fuel and then plug filters closed. So far, so good. I also think that low sulfer diesel (road diesel) takes away horsepower.

The above information is worth what you paid for it!

 

[RobC]

Metro west of Boston $2.65 is average price. Home heating oil, red.
I believe that ON or OFF road equipment needs to have low sulfur diesel in it.
Green taxed on road, Blue off road no tax,
Red still has sulfur and is for heating, a prior post mentioned the fine if caught being used as engine diesel $ 25,000. It's at least that.

FYI biodiesel. I looked into that. As good as it is for environment and engine it is also a solvent so if it's an older piece of equipment you need to clean out tanks and have a couple of filters on hand. If it's new equipment and you start with boidiesel you have to stay with that only. If you have to add regular diesel because your in a jam apparently that can clog filters too.
Rob

 

[rowerwet]

the fine for having the wrong fuel in an onroad diesel is based on x (fine amount) times the number of gallons your tanks will hold, and from what truck drivers have told me it is like $1000 a gallon depending on the state.
but to answer the fist question, if you are running out of HHO and need to get through the night or next day to avoid the call out charge from the oil co., take your 5 gal. can to the diesel pump and keep the oil burner going. I am running almost straight jet fuel (jet A) that I get free from work, my oil beast is my back up to my OPB though so I don't burn much at all, less than 10 gal a month, when the pellet boiler stops heating every now and then. Jet A has less lubrication as it is very highly refined Kerosene, but some of the guys at work have burned it exclusively for 5 years now with out problems.

 

[Fred61]

There was an article in one of the local southern vermont newspapers this morning about the Vermont oil dealers association wanting to go greener fearing the the general public sentiment toward pollution will just speed up the migration away from oil.
In the article, it was stated that the regular on road diesel is mandated to have no more than 15 PPM sulfur, Off road is still up to 500 PPM and heating oil can still be 3000 to 5000 PPM. My oil tank hasn't seen regular heating oil for two years, mostly because I don't want to buy the minimum delivery. I've had too much oil goin bad in the tank. The contaminated oil burns but at lower efficiency.

Speaking of lubricity of the fuel. I have a friend that is very conscious of it. He throws a quart of automatic transmission fluid in his fuel which he mostly uses in his tractors and his saw mill. Be careful not to put ATF in your on road because it turns the fuel red.

 

[pybyr]

There was an article in one of the local southern vermont newspapers this morning about the Vermont oil dealers association wanting to go greener fearing the the general public sentiment toward pollution will just speed up the migration away from oil.
In the article, it was stated that the regular on road diesel is mandated to have no more than 15 PPM sulfur, Off road is still up to 500 PPM and heating oil can still be 3000 to 5000 PPM. My oil tank hasn't seen regular heating oil for two years, mostly because I don't want to buy the minimum delivery. I've had too much oil goin bad in the tank. The contaminated oil burns but at lower efficiency.

Speaking of lubricity of the fuel. I have a friend that is very conscious of it. He throws a quart of automatic transmission fluid in his fuel which he mostly uses in his tractors and his saw mill. Be careful not to put ATF in your on road because it turns the fuel red.

VT Fuel Dealers Assn (along with some of their sibling organizations from other states) have taken a number of positions (such as asking Congress to look into market abuses) that one might not ordinarily assume-- but these are by and large local businesses tuned into what their customers and communities want.

From some articles that I've read, apparently the top way to boost lubricity is to put a little biodiesel in with the dino diesel; even a % or two of bio causes a big jump in lubricity.

 

[heaterman]

There's also 30% more energy in a gallon of diesel than gasoline. Gasoline I believe is more difficult to refine than diesel. No difference at all between farm diesel (high sulfer) and heating oil. I actually wanted to get crazy this heating season. I had them blend 20% bio diesel into our mix. Main concern was gelling in the tank. I have been running 15%, cranking it up each year. I also treat for algae. Unbelieveable a creature can live in fuel and then plug filters closed. So far, so good. I also think that low sulfer diesel (road diesel) takes away horsepower.

The above information is worth what you paid for it!

You want to be careful with the Bio fuel in an older oil burner. The pump seals are not designed for it and fail eventually. From what the local oil company tells me, all of our diesel and fuel oil is now low or ultra low sulfur content. I can see the difference the last year or two when I open up an oil fired boiler for service. Much cleaner stuff.

 

[peakbagger]

Adding biodiesel to an old heating oil tanks can alos loosen up a lot of crud. The filter catches most of it but not all. A former coworker has a blog on a 100% biodiesel conversion with all of the trails he went through and his fnal resolution.

http://burnb100.blogspot.com/

His wife has to be a saint for him to have to talk her through cleaning the burner head on the boiler while there are couple of toddlers underfoot!

 

[ihookem]

Off road is 2.20 a gal. here in S.E. wis.