Burning Wood Is More Expensive Than Gas!?!?!

[cptoneleg]

Prices are going to vary a lot by region and what is available for fuel. Pellets are about $100/ton cheaper here, but no NG in this rural neighborhood. Propane is pushing $4.00/gal. Wood, if you buy it is expensive, around $200-250/cord softwood, $350 hardwood. But back east we have folks reporting they get hardwood for $150/cord.

My area you can buy cord of hardwood, usually oak, locust mix for $125.00 cord you just have to season it yourself. and the usual make sure you don't get ripped.

 

[cptoneleg]

I scanned this thread kinda fast. I just have one question. WHERE THE HECK ARE PEOPLE PAYING 200-250 A CORD? Around here 100-125 is the norm for a whole measured cord of Ash or Oak. And that can be a hard sell. My neighbor can"t sell the most beautiful fully dried Ash for 130.00 dollars. So just were in the HECK in this country do people pay those rates. Maybe I need o send a semi there to sell my wood.

+ 1

Don't bring your bugs orany other hitchikers if you come my way.

 

[Renovation]

Hi Folks,

Actually, it's pretty easy to call BS on the info in the OP.

JUST USE THIS SITE'S OWN FUEL COST CALCULATOR! :cheese:

It's easy, and it's fun!

https://www.hearth.com/fuelcalc/oil.php

(I'm surprised the moderators haven't reminded us of the calculator, but maybe I missed it.)

In the boonies, my only choices are electricity, propane, heating oil and wood (coal too I suppose, but I haven't looked into it).

I checked local prices, and Propane is around $2.10 a gallon (according to the gummit), electricity is 0.12/KWH, and wood is $150/cord. Then I put in 80% efficiency for a wood stove, 90% for a gas furnace, and 100% for electricle (thanks Lisa).

The results?

Yearly heating costs, for the energy equivalent of 5 cords of wood:
Electricity $3,340
Propane $2,605/year
Wood $713

So, wood would save me 73% or $2K/year over propane, and is a lot more satisfying.

I hope we've driven a wooden stake through that one! ;-)

 

[btuser]

Combustion efficiency for a wood stove may be 80%, but I'd be lucky to get 60% of the heat from my stove into the house. I don't have the setup for it. If I had a center stove and a high mass design or a tipi or yurt then great but homes aren't built like this. Combustion efficiency vs seasonal efficiency vs system efficiency is what kills the average wood heat system (unless you're talking a gasser w/ internal storage). The best systems keep the btus in the fuel and release them only as needed. This is very hard to do with a natural draft system with unpredictable fuel and changing weather conditions. Even the human body is only 60% efficient.

 

[geoffm24]

Hi Folks,

Actually, it's pretty easy to call BS on the info in the OP.

JUST USE THIS SITE'S OWN FUEL COST CALCULATOR! :cheese:

It's easy, and it's fun!

https://www.hearth.com/fuelcalc/oil.php

(I'm surprised the moderators haven't reminded us of the calculator, but maybe I missed it.)

In the boonies, my only choices are electricity, propane, heating oil and wood (coal too I suppose, but I haven't looked into it).

I checked local prices, and Propane is around $2.10 a gallon (according to the gummit), electricity is 0.12/KWH, and wood is $150/cord. Then I put in 80% efficiency for a wood stove, 90% for a gas furnace, and 100% for electricle (thanks Lisa).

The results?

Yearly heating costs, for the energy equivalent of 5 cords of wood:
Electricity $3,340
Propane $2,605/year
Wood $713

So, wood would save me 73% or $2K/year over propane, and is a lot more satisfying.

I hope we've driven a wooden stake through that one! ;-)

Not really, I'll bet dollars to donuts that since that sign was in a STOVE DEALERS store they were talking about a gas stove vs a wood stove not a gas burning furnace. They are also talking about Natural Gas not Propane, big difference.

 

[SufficientSelf.com]

Wow guys, great discussion! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences! I'm glad I used a title that would get your attention. :D

Just out of curiosity, was that PG&E propaganda or a good guy assessment done by the guys at the stove shop?

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the PG&E part was just for the price for natural gas. It is possible that the place is trying to push their gas stoves, but they also sell wood and pellet stoves too, so not sure if they would be intentionally digging into those offerings.

That price comparision looks more like a sales gimmick to me.

I was thinking the same thing, so I did some searching and found the following:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
http://www.woodpelletinfo.com/calculator/

When In put in $300 per cord for wood, and $0.98 for gas / therm (going rate in my area) gas is always cheaper.

Can someone check my math? Based on my math I need about 30 millin BTU's max to heat my home during the winter (based on a little less than 2 cords of wood max per season and 20 million BTU/Cord).
For wood (if purchased at $300/ cord) that is $600 a season.
For gas, that is $366 a season.
If I get free wood and am splitting it, I'm only saving myself $366 a season? If I have to rent a splitter, then I'm down to only saving $266, and that is not factoring in all the work to rent the splitter, split, stack, cleanup, etc.

I wish they made a free standing wood stove that had a gas option! :D

The figures in that sign are flawed; impolitely, B.S. For you Google researchers, do your own diligence. Compare apples to apples, BTUs to BTUs of ANY fossil fuel cost. It is easy, there are 100's of charts from many agencies and websites. Nice one is right here. Basic fact is that buying C/S/D firewood up to a price of +/- $500/cord is still cheaper than all fossils, unless KIng Faisal or Mr. Chavez give it away. Do the math. What's a "therm" ? :lol:

Not trying to argue, but the data on both of the sites above (one of which is here on hearth.com) both state that at $300 a cord and $0.95 per therm, gas is cheaper. Honestly, the math is super easy. I know the price per therm and price per cord. The only numbers that we need to agree on is the BTU's per cord and per therm and we can easily compare. Heck, I know it won't be perfect because of a MILLION variables, but I'm sure we can find a way to get the data at least close enough to know if one is way cheaper than the other or if they are too close to even worry about.

And as John M pointed out....I love the work. Its really one of my hobbies...and there are few hobbies I have that actually PAY me back.

I totally understand that. I love fires and love wood and love burning things (been a pyro since I was a wee lad). With that said, at some point (at least for me) the hobby starts to turn into a "job" that I have to do, and once past that point it just becomes a chore. I am fortunate to have a lot of hobbies that save or make me money, so I need to value my "regular time" and also my "hobby time".

WHERE THE HECK ARE PEOPLE PAYING 200-250 A CORD?

See here: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sss/eby?query=firewood&srchType=T

You can get under $300 a cord, but it is often mixed softwoods.


In general, I don't really want to debate the benefits of wood vs. other forms of heat (how the heat "feels", how it saves the planet, how it makes me feel more self sufficient, provides excercise, etc.) because that is all SUPER subjective. I'm mostly interested to see if the numbers and my math are correct, because from there I can make an informed decision about the numbers and THEN I can try to factor in my personal subjectivity. For example, if wood and gas were break even at $300 a cord, I may still do wood just because I love it. If at $300 a cord, wood is 50% more expensive... I may change my decision. Some of you may keep burning wood even if it is 10 times more than gas... but that's not me and I need to have the numbers as a baseline from which to make an informed decision. I bet even if some of those have a point at which they would abandon wood (like if it was the same value as gold perhaps?)

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to make good decisions on accurate data... because up until now I feel like my decisions have been wrong because I thought wood, even at $300 a cord, was cheaper than gas.

Another example of subjectivity, Which is more "dangerous", gas or wood? Some say gas because it will blow your house up. Other say that using chainsaws, splitters, etc. have a way higher probability of accident and therefore is way more "dangerous". If I cut off a couple fingers cutting and splitting wood, that would be the end of me since all my income is basically built on my ability to efficiently use the computer and type. Also around subjectivity and safety: We have a lot of black widow spiders here. Do I factor in bringing those into the house?

Again, I totally love the discussion and I hope those that love burning wood don't think I'm debating with the benefits of wood. I'm just trying to get an idea of the economics so, again, I can make an informed decision. Those of you that say the numbers are wrong... help me know the exact numbers so I can work from there.

My question:

At $300 a cord for wood and $0.98 per therm for gas, which is cheaper and by how much?

From there I can:

1) Adjust the numbers if cord price goes down or gas price goes up
2) Adjust the decision based on very personal and subjetive pros and cons of wood vs. gas.

Thanks again

 

[btuser]

For most people burning wood doesn't make ecconomic sense.

 

[Stephen in SoKY]

I have to consider that my electric rates are 9 cents/KWH, my propane fill up last month was $1.99/gallon and wood is much more dificult for me to process than it was just a few years ago. I still put up & burn about 2 cords a year (all hardwood, all harvested here at home) but friday last I ran over to Owensboro and picked up 2 tons of coal for $170.00 total. That's 55-60 million BTU's for $170. I'm still golden during power outages, it stores indefinetely, my phyisical involvement is shoveling (-0- danger) rather than felling/bucking/splitting/stacking/moving to the porch, and I'll only tend the stove twice a day. Obviously, whenever anyone asks me about going to wood, I say yes enthusiastically, but strongly recomend they go with a coal stove to burn it just in case they ever really look at the advantages of coal.

 

[Renovation]

So, wood would save me 73% or $2K/year over propane, and is a lot more satisfying.

I hope we've driven a wooden stake through that one! ;-)

Not really, I'll bet dollars to donuts that since that sign was in a STOVE DEALERS store they were talking about a gas stove vs a wood stove not a gas burning furnace. They are also talking about Natural Gas not Propane, big difference.

My point remains--use the calculator to model your own situation. The calculator will not predict your exact cost, but it will show the relative cost differences between heating methods.

I can't get natural gas but if I could, natural gas would cost $2,019/year for the same amount of heat. With wood still saving me $1,300/year.

And I'm sure the store owner got the gas stove savings by calculating the cost of heating one room with the family huddled around it, rather than the whole house. Sure, a person could go that way, but would get the same savings from a central gas furnace if they only heated one room.

You have to compare apples to apples, unless of course you're trying to trick someone into buying your product. ;-)

 

[SufficientSelf.com]

I'm new to all this, but I'm surprised there is so much debate around just basic costs!?! If I understand what I've read correctly, a BTU is a BTU regardless if it is produced from wood, coal, electricity, gas, or 20 people in my living room playing "Dance Dance Revolution".

Sure there are a lot of BTU production differences, but can't we get close enough with the BTU output of a cord of hardwood and a therm of gas and then calculate from there?

I guess the question is, what is a good number to use for BTUs from a cord of wood in a free standing wood stove vs. BTUs from a therm of gas in a free standing gas stove?

Based on the numbers I've seen:
Firewood: 20 million BTU/Cord
Natural Gas: 1.03 million BTU’s perMCF

From the "heatcalc.xls" file, at $200 per cord and $0.98 per therm: Fuel Price Per Million Btu:
Gas: $9.80
Wood: $9.09

Are those numbers incorrect?

 

[Renovation]

I'm new to all this, but I'm surprised there is so much debate around just basic costs!?! Me too, but debate can be educational. If I understand what I've read correctly, a BTU is a BTU regardless if it is produced from wood, coal, electricity, gas, or 20 people in my living room playing "Dance Dance Revolution". Agreed!

Sure there are a lot of BTU production differences, but can't we get close enough with the BTU output of a cord of hardwood and a therm of gas and then calculate from there?

I guess the question is, what is a good number to use for BTUs from a cord of wood in a free standing wood stove vs. BTUs from a therm of gas in a free standing gas stove?

Based on the numbers I've seen:
Firewood: 20 million BTU/Cord
Natural Gas: 1.03 million BTU’s perMCF

From the "heatcalc.xls" file, at $200 per cord and $0.98 per therm: Fuel Price Per Million Btu:
Gas: $9.80
Wood: $9.09

Are those numbers incorrect? Nope--plugging your numbers into this site's own calculator ( https://www.hearth.com/fuelcalc/oil.php ) I get the same relative cost. Good job!

 

[Lumber-Jack]

It's pretty simple, the original poster asked the question "Should I abandon all my excitement for getting an NC-13 (which I thought would save me money) and just get a pretty free standing gas stove?"

Unfortunately the answer may have to be yes if the following things are true.
If he is simply getting into wood heat to save money, and he can get his NG as cheaply as they have listed on that sign, and he has to pay $300 for a cord of wood.
If any of those 3 things are not true then there is some wiggle room for debate.

Again I ask,,,,,, who is paying that much for wood???

 

[JotulOwner]

For me, if just saving money was the reason for burning wood, I would heat with oil only. Around here, scrounging for free wood isn't easy and, although the price of firewood isn't that bad (about $150/cord), when I figure in the time it takes to maintain wood heat, I would never bother unless I enjoyed it. I know many of you don't have a choice or financially it makes a huge difference, but not for me. For me, it would be easier to work a little overtime instead if that was all it was about.

 

[SufficientSelf.com]

RenovationGeorge, thanks for validating my questions.

Carbon_Liberator, you're right about my first post. Unfortunately $200 - $300 is the going rate for split seasoned hardwood in this area (difference in price usually between delivered and picked up) and natural gas is the price shown on that sign ($0.98).

JotulOwner, I'm at the same thought. I'm pretty convinced now that where I live, and how little we burn, the economics just don't pan out. I think my beak even with wood vs. gas is about $200 per cord of wood. Now I just need to start factoring in all the subjective pros and cons and decide what to do.

Gas stove
Wood stove
Other gas heating (wall furnace, baseboards, etc.)
Some combination of the above

I hate thinking / writing this, but my wife and I are probably not inclined to rent a splitter, split wood & stack wood, deal with the mess, etc. to save a few hundred $$ a year. I still really do love fire, but I just don't know if my love is enough to go to all the extra work.

 

[Fake coal burner]

Burned all coal, wood. natural gas Went with gas stove 3 years ago House is on all natural gas. Saved about 1/3 on gas bill since putting in gas stove Only use the gas furnace at night for about 5 hours, when really cold. To heat unfinished basement to keep pipes from freezing. Have to buy wood. So I have saved highest gas bill last 2 winters was around $ 125 a month. We live in a smog area that can last up to 60 days in the winter no burn any solid fuels. Looking at a cold stove when you need it. Didnt make much sense to me. Here all gas appliances have to EPA tested when installed except cook stoves. IF wood is fee you can save.

 

[Badfish740]

$300 bucks a cord-HA! The highest I've seen around here (Craigslist) is maybe $250. Regardless, I started burning wood because I knew I could find what I needed for free, well, you know what I mean. The math can get pretty hairy so I have no desire to get into it really, but suffice it to say that based on the math in that flyer I have about $1800 worth of wood in the backyard-who knew? The six or so cords I have came from neighbors who've had trees cut, power line cuttings, pallets, etc...sure I could count my time spent transporting, splitting, cutting, stacking, etc...depreciate the cost of my used chainsaws, splitter, and assorted tools, and add up the diesel fuel, gasoline/2 stroke oil, and bar oil, and the list goes on. I have no idea what that number would be. However, I do know that the first winter in our house we spent nearly $2000 on fuel oil-and that was keeping the thermostat at 68! My gut tells me that whatever I've spent to gather a winters worth of "free" wood, it doesn't come close to $2000. Also, as others have alluded to, one gets a whole lot of satisfaction throwing another split onto the fire rather than turning up a dial. Not to mention the fact that yes, half of my Saturday was spent splitting and transporting half a cord of free oak, but that was also half a Saturday spent working with my dad and brother, and a beautiful Sunday morning spent stacking it with my wife. Priceless...

 

[stoichiometry]

And to think - I was *just* complaining about $70 a cord !! LOL

 

[Stevebass4]

Here's the real way to compare fuel prices. If you go into a house that is heated by oil, electricity, gas etc. the inside temperature will usually be between 60 and 67 degrees. You come into a hearth.com members home and it will be 70 to 85 degrees.

true!!

 

[Badfish740]

 

[drozenski]

Seeing as i got 18 cord for $550 from a tree company all i had to do was. Cut, split and stack it i would say wood comes out on top.

Last year: Hot water heater + Furnace = $378 bill in January
This year: Hot water heater + Furnace + Bother ( so more hotwater ) = $59 gas bill


My furnace hasent even kicked on and it's been pretty cold here the past we weeks.

 

[wood-fan-atic]

There is no gas anywhere NEAR my house, so when I bought it, I had to heat primarily with oil. My old ,drafty, Levitt home ate up about 175gallons A MONTH in the first winter (@ about 2.90 per). Figure on 4 1/2 months of real cold weather- I spent $2300 heating my home. Sure, I bought a new stove this year ($1500 after govt rebate) and a splitter ($1000 @ TSC), but I'll have these things for many moons to come. I can also keep my house as WARM AS I SEE FIT and not worry about writing a check an oil company. And THAT, my fine Hearth.com friends , is PRICELESS! ;-)

 

[Green Energy]

My choices are electric, fuel oil, or propane. No natty in my neck of the woods. I had to replace my central HVAC system a couple years ago and looked at propane. There was not savings to put in a tank. So I went with a 16 SEER heat pump and a wood stove for when it gets below 35 F. It is the cheapest. As many people also stated, it is a hobby that does not cost me money over my alternative ways of heating.

Also, I usually have about 1-2 cords of wood that I produce off my lot. So I usually only need to buy 2 cords a year. For me, I get good quality oak for $200 cord.

 

[cycloxer]

Natural Gas I am paying $17.40 per mil Btu, at 80% efficiency = $21.64 per mil Btu
Wood I am paying $11.36 per mil Btu, at 65% efficiency = $17.48 per mil Btu for Wood

So wood still wins.

 

[begreen]

Here's the real way to compare fuel prices. If you go into a house that is heated by oil, electricity, gas etc. the inside temperature will usually be between 60 and 67 degrees. You come into a hearth.com members home and it will be 70 to 85 degrees.

true!!

At 87F I would be in my undershorts and running outside to cool down. Why is it people turn on the A/C when it gets to be 80F in summer, yet they are ok with high winter temps?

 

[precaud]

Why is it people turn on the A/C when it gets to be 80F in summer, yet they are ok with high winter temps?

The house structure is cooler in the winter. Makes a big diff.