Calling all PYRO's

[soupy1957]

Ok all you "Pyro's" (me included)............let's review......

Suppose (and it didn't happen to me yet, thank the Good Lord), you found you had a chimney fire...........there's lots of links you could post for how to put one out, but let's test MY memory and YOURS......

What do you do? (No fair saying "call 911" because in fact, it might lead to that) What are the "Do's" and "Don'ts" that you can pass along from experience (those of you who have HAD a chimney fire), and what do you know you SHOULD do?

Let's see if we can't all be on the same page, so that if it DID happen to us (God forbid), we'd be ready!!

By the way........the construction project in our home is finally done, and I lit a long over due fire, this morning!!

-Soupy1957

 

[quads]

Make sure the stove is closed down, then watch the roof and yard for burning chunks. Dad would send us kids outside to do that while he read the newspaper! He never got very excited about chimney fires. We had so many that he was used to them.

 

[soupy1957]

Define "Closed Down" for us..........that might be useful.

 

[firefighterjake]

Well I've never had a chimney fire . . . both in the two years I'm been burning with the EPA stove and in the many years before when I was burning with pre-EPA stoves . . . and I will maintain that honestly there is no reason to have a chimney fire UNLESS . . .

-- You are burning unseasoned wood and/or
-- You are not running your woodstove at the proper temps -- not too hot and not too cold and/or
-- You do not have the right sized stove or know how to run the stove properly and/or
-- You do not take the time to inspect and/or clean the chimney on a regular basis (my own advice is to do check the chimney at least once a month.)

That said . . . on the fire side . . . when I get called out at 1 a.m. for a chimney fire (and it's always late at night . . . usually in middle of a snow storm . . . and usually on a steep pitched metal roof) what I tend to find time and time again is that . . .

-- The owner was burning unseasoned wood and/or
-- The owner was not running the stove at the proper temps -- typically he has no idea as to how hot his woodstove or flue are running at for temps due to a lack of thermometers and/or
-- The owner's woodstove was bought since he liked the design, it was a good price or it was given to him free -- and so it is often too large and as a result he is choking it down each and every night and sometimes during the day to keep from getting blasted out of his home and/or
-- The owner cannot recall the last time he checked the chimney or cleaned the chimney . . . or tells us that the last time the chimney was cleaned was a year earlier when he had a chimney fire and called us to his home.

That said . . . my advice for folks that do not heed my first advice to burn seasoned wood, burn at proper temps, know their stove and check and clean their chimneys (which incidentally I find much easier to do and much less unsettling than having a chimney fire break out at an inopportune moment) . . .

1. Call 911 . . . it's a no-brainer. Sure, some folks may think the firefighters in their town are a bunch of yahoos who like screaming around town with the red lights . . . and some folks may deride them by calling them cellar savers . . . but the fact is here in the U.S. . . . even in Backwater, Maine USA the fire service is evolving to be very professional in their response . . . and it doesn't matter if you get paid full time, you get paid per call or if you volunteer free of charge as a way of giving back to your town . . . these guys are the experts . . . and you want these guys on the way to your home in case things don't go as planned.

2. Close off the air. Chances are the fire is in the chimney . . . after all it's called a chimney fire. But there is no sense keeping the fire going any more or longer than you have to . . . close off the primary and secondary sources of air . . . if you can do so easily without risking a burn injury to yourself. The key here is to know where the air coming into the stove is coming from. I do not recommend attempting to extinguish the fire in the firebox with an extinguisher, wet newspaper, etc. . . . for me . . . once the fire is raging the door stays shut until I'm down to coals . . . I would rather have the fire continue to burn in the firebox than to blast it with an extinguisher and have hot coals be pushed out of the firebox by the extinguisher.

3. If you have a stove tied into a masonry chimney without a liner . . . and it often seems that this is where I see a lot of these chimney fires . . . and if there are some hot coals or bits of creosote that have fallen down to the clean out door I will put half a cup of water or less on these coals/creosote . . . the water hits the hot coal/creosote, converts to steam and is borne up wards by the natural draft. This works very well to put out a fire.

4. If you have Class A pipe, a liner or rigid pipe . . . and time and easy access to the roof . . . you can either attempt to drop a "chimney bomb" (you could make up your own by putting baking soda in plastic Ziplock baggies) down the chimney or use your ABC extinguisher . . . or even put a small amount of water down this . . . the problem here . . . a) getting out the ladder and climbing up will take time . . . b) you will be dealing with the heavy volume of smoke, heat (we've had steel chain glowing red hot when used on a chimney fire), sparks and possibly flames blowing out of the top of the chimney . . . without protective gear (gloves, air packs, etc.) you could risk injury.

As you can see . . . putting out a chimney fire is much more of a challenge and inconvenience than simply doing the right thing . . . I would rather spend 10-30 minutes checking and brushing my chimney each month on a sunny Saturday afternoon . . . than running around at 3 in the morning and having to deal with a chimney fire at that point.

 

[quads]

Define "Closed Down" for us..........that might be useful.

What Jake said.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

Define "Closed Down" for us..........that might be useful.

all air/draft controls shut.

air flow "closed down". Most EPA stoves (I think all, but am not totally sure) cannot be closed down completely, but every bit of air that don't go in there can't help feed the fire. If the fire is in a modern triple wall SS class A chimney, I don't think it can go real bad less something comes out the top and settles on the azella bushes or something. But last year (winter of '08) a friend's house not far from us (1 mile) with a wood stove and a flexible liner that ran about 10' up the original 30' 1800's something stone chimney had a chimney fire, and it migrated thru the old failing mortar joints above the end of the liner but in the chimney.. into the attic. nothing they could do to shut it down, because the fire was able to draw air from around, and actually thru the chimney structure. Total loss.

And yes, Jake, it was at 3:30am, snowing sideways, steep metal roof, off camber sloping ground.

 

[BrotherBart]

Light a Chimfex. Open the door and throw it in. Close the door.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Jake has a good post on this. For myself, I've never experienced a chimney fire in all the years we've burned wood. I've only seen a couple and thankfully those turned out okay.

 

[soupy1957]

I'd like to learn more about "Chimfex"...........

Also, I've contributed to, and started, some threads about temps, but all I'm running is a thermostat on the box, and nothing on the double-wall flue.

As far as what's too hot.......can I gauge that by my box thermostat? Isn't it about being too hot, too long anyway?

I get a fire going, and see my temps go from 750ºF to 1000ºF on the box thermostat. It'll drop down as the wood burns off of course, but I really DON'T know if I'm over doing it when I stoke her up to 1,000ºF. I'm figuring the "hot" would burn OFF any creosote, and keep my double wall Flue clean?!

It seems like checking my Flue once a month would be especially necessary if I'm burning 24/7.......ain't that so? If I'm burning from 6 AM to 8 PM and letting the fire go out at night, how about once every TWO months? I also burn no green wood, or trash, or crap wood.

-Soupy1957

 

[vvvv]

I've read about keeping a wet newspaper in a sealed plastic bag readily available for such an occasion & I think this idea came from Prof. Dick Hill.

 

[Pagey]

I'd like to learn more about "Chimfex"...........

Also, I've contributed to, and started, some threads about temps, but all I'm running is a thermostat on the box, and nothing on the double-wall flue.

As far as what's too hot.......can I gauge that by my box thermostat? Isn't it about being too hot, too long anyway?

I get a fire going, and see my temps go from 750ºF to 1000ºF on the box thermostat. It'll drop down as the wood burns off of course, but I really DON'T know if I'm over doing it when I stoke her up to 1,000ºF. I'm figuring the "hot" would burn OFF any creosote, and keep my double wall Flue clean?!

It seems like checking my Flue once a month would be especially necessary if I'm burning 24/7.......ain't that so? If I'm burning from 6 AM to 8 PM and letting the fire go out at night, how about once every TWO months? I also burn no green wood, or trash, or crap wood.

-Soupy1957

Are you saying you get the stove top itself up to 1,000F?

 

[soupy1957]

Pagey: Nope........the firebox

 

[Pagey]

Pagey: Nope........the firebox

What are you using to measure those internal temps?

 

[savageactor7]

Since we had a an inline damper installed...I'd just close it and choke down the primary air. If there was no inline damper we'd very quickly toss the always available half bucket or more of ashes on the fire, close the door then choke down on the primary air.

 

[soupy1957]

Sounds a tad messy, savageactor7, but in an emergency situation, not a bad idea!!

Pagey: I have one of those magnetic thermometers that I bought from the place where we bought the wood stove. If you look at an Avalon Rainier 90, you'll note an angled flange that overhangs the front door, on the . I had asked the licensed installers where the thermometer might be well placed, and they said to put it on that flange. Originally, I had it off to one side, on that flange, but I experimented, and discovered that the temps, which typically read about 650ºF on the SIDE of the angled flange, were higher in the middle (as per temps I've noted in THIS thread). I believe I started a thread in here at one point, asking about that temp difference, and where the folks in here would say that thermometer should go, and per ca pita, most said, "in the middle." So there it sits. Someone else suggested buying a thermometer (essentially a thermocouple) that mounts in the double-wall Flue pipe, but I wasn't too keen on drilling holes in the Flue pipe, so I didn't. My only temperature gauge is the one on the flange.

This thread is, of course, about .........what to do if you have a chimney fire, and I'd like to stay there..........but.........I'll digress to say that I'm still hung up over this idea of "burning too hot." The concept of burning too COOL is a no-brainer, but I don't see info in my owners manual about what is "too hot." It's hard to gauge, at least for "me" anyway. I figured, hey.........it's a fire, dude..........it's gonna burn "hot" and yet what I'm hearing is that it is that too hot condition that can "damage your stove" and "cause chimney fires." I thought "chimney fires" were mostly because people were burning green wood, and trash, and the creosote was advancing more rapidly, by doing so (never mind what level of polutants they are putting in the air). Naturally it is my intention and I have done so, to burn dry wood (below 20%..........heck, I even use a moisture meter on my wood before I stick it in there), and NOT to burn painted wood, or treated wood, or trash. In the end, I know I will build up creosote, just because I'm "burning wood." And I fully intend to be "regular" in my wood stove cleaning. But I don't want to have to worry about burning "too hot" along with all the other worries. I guess I'm gonna have to contact the manufacturer directly, and ask them about "what's TOO hot" and "how to monitor that."

-Soupy1957

 

[Pagey]

Soupy,

Sorry for the thread detour. I just saw that 1,000F figure and it really jumped out at me. I burn a Lopi Endeavor, which is made by Travis Ind., the same people that make your Avalon, and it states clearly in the Endeavor's manual that anything over 800F is "generally considered overfiring the stove". Of course the overfire temp will vary from stove to stove and manufacturer to manufacturer, but I would at least check with Travis to get the "horses's mouth" version of the story.

As far as what to do in the event of a chimney fire, I think you've gotten good advice thus far. Dialing 911 and getting people out or at the very least ready to get out is your first priority. Shutting down as much air to stove/system is generally agreed upon, too. After that is where you seem to get into the gray areas. Some would say by opening the door to insert a Chimfex or some other fire suppression device, you run the risk of giving more air to a runaway fire and you risk the gases in the stove exploding in your face when you provide oxygen to the heat. I would think a cleanout door would be the best place to insert such a chemical device, assuming you had a masonry chimney.

As far as avoiding one to begin with, I think it really comes down to 3 main things: 1.) burn seasoned wood (I would say on AVERAGE, that means cut, split, and stacked for 1 year minimum); 2.) burn the seasoned wood properly (i.e., don't smolder the fire and run with a stove top temp of 350F through the ENTIRE burn cycle with no active secondary combustion, etc.); and 3.) regular inspections of your flue, especially during your first year or two of burning.

By its very nature, combusted wood will give off volatile organic compounds. And there is simply no way to burn up 100% of these compounds. Because of draft and rising heat, these VOCs are going to go up your flue. Some will collect there, no matter what. If your flue gases are too cool, they'll combine with the water vapor (again, another byproduct of combustion which you can do nothing about) and condense to form creosote. So, to me, by that logic the goal is to minimize the VOCs and the amount of water vapor by burning dry wood properly so that secondary combustion will burn up the bulk of those VOCs.

Chemists and physical scientists, please correct me if I am wrong. I do not wish to pass on bad information.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

Sounds a tad messy, savageactor7, but in an emergency situation, not a bad idea!!

Pagey: I have one of those magnetic thermometers that I bought from the place where we bought the wood stove. If you look at an Avalon Rainier 90, you'll note an angled flange that overhangs the front door, on the . I had asked the licensed installers where the thermometer might be well placed, and they said to put it on that flange. Originally, I had it off to one side, on that flange, but I experimented, and discovered that the temps, which typically read about 650ºF on the SIDE of the angled flange, were higher in the middle (as per temps I've noted in THIS thread). I believe I started a thread in here at one point, asking about that temp difference, and where the folks in here would say that thermometer should go, and per ca pita, most said, "in the middle." So there it sits. Someone else suggested buying a thermometer (essentially a thermocouple) that mounts in the double-wall Flue pipe, but I wasn't too keen on drilling holes in the Flue pipe, so I didn't. My only temperature gauge is the one on the flange.

This thread is, of course, about .........what to do if you have a chimney fire, and I'd like to stay there..........but.........I'll digress to say that I'm still hung up over this idea of "burning too hot." The concept of burning too COOL is a no-brainer, but I don't see info in my owners manual about what is "too hot." It's hard to gauge, at least for "me" anyway. I figured, hey.........it's a fire, dude..........it's gonna burn "hot" and yet what I'm hearing is that it is that too hot condition that can "damage your stove" and "cause chimney fires." I thought "chimney fires" were mostly because people were burning green wood, and trash, and the creosote was advancing more rapidly, by doing so (never mind what level of polutants they are putting in the air). Naturally it is my intention and I have done so, to burn dry wood (below 20%..........heck, I even use a moisture meter on my wood before I stick it in there), and NOT to burn painted wood, or treated wood, or trash. In the end, I know I will build up creosote, just because I'm "burning wood." And I fully intend to be "regular" in my wood stove cleaning. But I don't want to have to worry about burning "too hot" along with all the other worries. I guess I'm gonna have to contact the manufacturer directly, and ask them about "what's TOO hot" and "how to monitor that."

-Soupy1957

Again, we have a different stove.. But our manual says that you measure stove temp in the center of the top stone, and if that spot reaches 600, you are in an overfire condition. It also says 300+ at that spot is a low fire, 400+ is a medium fire and a high fire is 450+ (it may be 500+, but I think it was 450), but you get the idea. I don't know if all stoves give directions that well or not. Our manual also states that a high fire once or twice a day for 15-30 minutes will burn off any accumalated creosote so that you don't get a dangerous buildup. Some people believe that, some don't. I note I did let her rip after most reloads, and my chimney was pretty clean when we shut her down and went to summer mode. I can't swear that was why, but I can swear it didn't hurt, and was no trouble to do. The thermocouple thing is a good idea if you want to work with or know your inner flue temps. It's done all the time, both residential and industrial. I know it seems "wrong" to drill a hole in your flue, but it won't hurt a thing, any leakage will be "in" not out. Leaky joints don't show themselves with smoke, but with creosote buildup at that spot from cooling air entering the pipe..