Cast Iron Vs. Plate Steel

[BrotherBart]

I come down on the side of a professional installation for a Class A chimney. Most of the forum members, not all, that do their own are installing liners in masonry chimneys. Not near the job of punching a hole in the ceiling and roof to install a Class A.

Local sweeps should be able to give you estimates on installing the pipe. Heck, they are the ones most of the stove shops use for installations. Not a lot of stove stores are going to keep installers on the payroll for their monthly number of stoves and installations sold. As in none of them.

Craig did but that was in the heyday of wood stoves.

 

[BrotherBart]

You were posting the JPG while I was posting. What kind of fireplace, full masonry or pre-fab, is that and what are the dimensions of it?

 

[Hogwildz]

Some things I would look for:
Consider a blower, they really get the heat out and away from the stove better than without. Look for a variable speed blower, just high & low may not get where you want the temp to be. You can always turn it down or off. Heat distribution is much, much better with the blower.
Make sure you know where you are going to put the stove. Manufacturers clearances and optional shields for closer tolerances are to be considered when looking at a certain stove. Hearth must be considered as well as hearth clearances also.
The fancier you go, the more expensive it is. Fancier is better looking, but doesn't make it heat any better.
Are you going to put it in an easily accessible area, meaning keep in mind if heating seriously for 24/7 usage, you will be lugging wood in periodically.
The bigger the area you have to stack, the less trips outside. And there is wood mess. So keep in mind you may be sweeping, or vacuuming more often. Depending on what your floors are.
As most all others are stating, the Englander 30NCL IS the most BANG for your BUCK. You can always give one a go, and change it down the road if you even want to after heating that place with it. The stove & chimney is DIY possible, but if you don't feel up to it. Hire someone else to do it. With the money you save if purchasing an Englander, you could pay for the install.
After firing up that Englander, you may retire the gas one permanently.

 

[dlpz]

Sorry BrotherBart if my description is a little confusing. Either place "A or B" the install would be a virgin install, straight pipe up and out the roof, unfortunately I don't have a pre-exisiting fireplace. The gas one at the end of house is a direct vent horizontally out the back side.

 

[Hogwildz]

Sorry BrotherBart if my description is a little confusing. Either place "A or B" the install would be a virgin install, straight pipe up and out the roof, unfortunately I don't have a pre-exisiting fireplace. The gas one at the end of house is a direct vent horizontally out the back side.

Me, personally.... I would use spot "B", seems the heat would have a better chance getting down that hallway. Plus the radiant factor through the glass. Add that blower on and you might get some down there. Those bedrooms may or may not be tough to get heat back to. Facing the stove in that direct seems to be the most effective way though. Prolly take up less space than a corner install also.

 

[BrotherBart]

Sorry BrotherBart if my description is a little confusing. Either place "A or B" the install would be a virgin install, straight pipe up and out the roof, unfortunately I don't have a pre-exisiting fireplace. The gas one at the end of house is a direct vent horizontally out the back side.

Had to ask when I saw the fireplace in the JPG. Put the 30-NC (or the Quad) with a blower into a fireplace, like I did, located the way that fireplace of yours is and the blower would shoot that hot air right over the top of that stove and straight out through the whole house.

 

[elkimmeg]

How to plan a sucesfulll installation. You need to read the instalation manual know your clearances required from combustiable walls
If you need tighter tollarances there are reduced clearance enclosures as governed by NFPA 211 meaning clearances can be reduced up to 12" from combustiables
That applys to the stove location but there are two clearances to deal with the stove position then the connector pipe requirements.
Common single wall conector pipe has 18" to combustiables More expensive and promoting better draft is double wall connector pipe iths clearance is 6"
finally there are conector pipe shields that can reduce clearances. What you need to do is good preparation planning. get some graft paper use one a square = 1ft cut out the stove requirements for clearances and place it on the graft paper for locations. Next you need to address the ceiling and roof cut out Code will allow cutting one ceiling joist and one rafter without doubling up the adjoining ceiling joist or rafter but required a double up of headers between existing joist and rafters. Naturally Joist hangers are required. This applies to 16' on center spacing only not 24" you need to drill an exploritory hole in the ceiling . I use a thin bell wire bit. One might get lucky and hoit mid joist spane and not need to cut any joist or rafters.
then again one can move the stove out to advoid a structual member cut out my suggestion You need to have the chimney manufactures instruction concerning the ceiling box space required and roofing box cut out requirements likee simson dura vent kits are sold at home depot. Finally you need to address floor protection and your original sq cut out square from the graft paper should be cut to that size to help you move around. Fortunately all Englanders are top exit so read and figure the actual placement from the flue collar.

Should you run into differculties pm me And I will forward you a phone # to walk you threw the process including hoiw to reshingle the roof..

Humor here I built my own home so my wife has no contractor to bich about or she will be on the receiving end of that arguement You do have a sawsall? thats the most important tool

You can do it were are here to help you

PS Englander are sold at ACE service star and Abucchon hardware stores so check them out to see if left over inventory is around.. I help you out but you orange men are too far away

 

[Gooserider]

I think I've come full circle from where I started. You guys have been awesome help!!

A guy I work with is an ex HD general manager and still has ins at HD so I'm going to see if he can wheel and deal anything for me, If he wants to get his orders manufactured and shipped on time he owes me!

Also, the place that services my crap a** furnace is a Napolean dealer and actually right down the road so I'm going to look at the 1900 through them.

Sounds like a good plan...

two more newbie questions:

1. Is there a real difference in manufacturing specs on Grams/Hr outputs between lets say 2.8 and 1.1?

The EPA themselves, when they published the testing procedures and defined the test standard for emmissions specifically said that the exact numbers should NOT be used for comparison shopping! While we have had "emmission wars" here on the Forum, in actual practice the test procedure that gets the numbers has only a vague resemblance to the real world, and it is not at all clear how what a stove does in the test will map to the "real world" of actual burning conditions, with normal firewood, etc. A few factors do seem quite clear -
1. You MUST burn DRY, PROPERLY SEASONED wood to get good emmissions performance. Green or wet wood will seriously hurt both your heat output and your emmissions.
2. You MUST MAINTAIN the stove properly - air passages need to be kept clear, gaskets kept in proper sealing condition, and any other stove specific maintainance performed regularly to keep emmissions at their lowest.
3. ANY EPA - II stove will be so much better in terms of emmissions than a pre-EPA stove that the difference between models is pretty much lost in the noise...

2. I called a place today that is selling face cords at 55$ if picked up, I haven't called any place else yet since this place is about 3 miles from my house, does seem reasonable?

"Face Cord" is a very fuzzy term that lacks a firm definition - USUALLY it is a pile 4' x 8' x the length of one split, so the amount of wood you will get depends on the length of the splits. A "REAL" cord, which is the only unit for which there is a legal definition, is 4' x 4' x 8', or 128 cubic feet, stacked tightly. Thus if the place is selling 24" splits, the real price is $110 / cord - if 16" splits $165 / cord... This isn't a bad price for around here, but wood prices depend a great deal on the local area... If you plan to pick it up, do you have a suitable vehicle? How do they determine what constitutes a "face cord" ? What kind of wood is it? How long has it been seasoning, and has it been covered while seasoning or not?

Pre-cut and split is the most expensive way to purchase wood, and probably generates the most firewood complaints we see here on the forums - It seems that many wood guys use the same rulers to measure firewood cords that they give their girlfriends to measure other sorts of 'wood' ("He told me "this much" was nine inches....") %-P as we see lots of "short cords" reported. Also, properly seasoned wood should be about 20% moisture, but the wood guys seem to call anything that was cut down more than a week ago "seasoned"...

The first year we burned I purchased "cut & split" - I got three short cords from three different vendors, I stacked it and got 114-120 Cubic feet figuring 18" wood, which was on the generous side for length. Two of the cords were supposedly seasoned, and weren't very... One was sold as only partially seasoned, and burned at least as well as the other two. Now I purchase "log length" and process it myself, which is time consuming, but saves me health club dues, and costs MUCH less. I have an exceptionally good deal with a local tree service guy where I pay $50 for whatever is on his truck at the end of the day, usually about a half load, 3-4 cords, so far the two loads I've gotten have been 100% oak. Several of the other local tree services are getting $300 - 350 for a full truckload, approx 4-7 cords depending on the truck and how the logs fit onto it.

I am kind of leary on doing the install myself due to clearances, fires, CO issues, permits, and cutting a hole through my new roof. If anything goes awry I can pin it on the installer vs my wife b*tching at me (which she would anyway).

I figure if you hire the contractor, you'll get blamed for anything that goes wrong - If you do it yourself, you at least can try to protect yourself by doing it right... :coolgrin:

As to the mead question, I've been brewing now for about 6 years. I have some batches currently doing bulk aging that have been in the carboys for almost 5 years now, other stuff has been ready in as little as 6-9 months. It all depends on what sort of mead it is, and how long it takes to get really good. I don't bottle anything until I think it tastes right, and it is completely done fermenting, then I like to bottle age for a few months more...

Right now it looks like I'll have at least a Cyser (Apple cider based mead, w/ spices) and a couple of different berry meads ready for the party. I have a couple of other things that are about ready to bottle, but I'm out of room on the wine rack - it only holds 120 x 750ml bottles - I have another one on order to get me up to 240 bottle capacity, but it won't be here in time to fill it before the party.

Gooserider

 

[dlpz]

Guys,

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going with the Englander, actually the Timber Ridge version, OverstockStoves has the best price as so far I can tell unless somebody can lead me somewhere cheaper. Blowes had it for around 900 + Tax, HD had it for 1000 + tax, Sutherlands had 'em for around 880+ tax (although there isn't one near me so they are out). Has anybody had any experiences in dealing with Overstockstoves.com? I'm kind of leary of dealing with what I can't see.

Also after looking at the stove at Lowes I realized its pretty low to the ground. I'm going to build a hearth, was thinking 2x4" frame but now am thinking 2X6. Going to do a corner install for room and clearances from other objects. If anybody has some nice drawings or pictures of corner hearths I'd appreciate it! My plan was basically this; build a frame the manufacture recommended size, put down ply wood, cement backer and tile. Cement backer on the walls and tile that as well. If there is an easier way please let me know!!

 

[Gooserider]

First question is to look in the manual and figure out your required R-values - what does that stove require? Then I would go to this article in the Hearth Wiki to figure out what combo of materials would give me that value. On the walls - remember that if you are after the NFPA clearance reduction, you have to space the backer 1" off the walls, with ventilation top and bottom. As long as you meet all the clearances, your basic idea sounds good.

Gooserider

 

[RISurfer20]

dlpz. I purchased the Englander 30NCL through overstockstoves.com. It seemed shady at first but I received the stove within five days. This company ships the stove to a local transport distribution center. In my case I had to travel an hour to pick up the stove. The center dropped the unit right into the back of my truck. Can't beat the price from overstockstoves since there is no tax and shipping is included in the price. I did have several broken firebricks from shipping but Englander replaced these items with no hesitation. This website has the lowest price on the 30ncl. Hope this helps.

 

[drizler]

Not a reflection on where you are buying from off the net but just be careful of one thing. Make sure they have em in stock before you order. I did that with my a pellet stove 4 years ago and they kept me dancing for nearly a month waiting for their suddenly induced backorder issues. Now, it was a pellet stove back in the day when there weren't enough of em but still the lies they will tell to string you along............... Anyways, just make sure they have em in stock so you don't have to keep playing phone tag. I eventually got my Countryside after telling the other place to shove off in very direct terms and picking it up at the nearly local Overnite dock would have been so simple if it were not for rush hour in Burlington Vermont AND the snow storm. I could have walked home quicker.

 

[BrotherBart]

Not a reflection on where you are buying from off the net but just be careful of one thing. Make sure they have em in stock before you order.

overstockstoves.com mailing address is in Monroe, Virginia. England's Stove Works address is in Monroe, Virginia, total population 3,687. Hmmm...

Somehow I don't think having stoves in stock will be an issue.

 

[dlpz]

This is just a follow up.

I'm going with the Quad, based on decent reviews and proximity of dealer to me. Not going to do an install myself at this time. Going with a 3100 for a 1400 sq ft house. Dealer and his install guy said it was the right size. Although I think the 4300 may serve me better down the road. Appreciate all the help and Have a great 2008!! Should be burning in about two weeks!

 

[RonB]

Thanks for the update. Post some pics of the install and finished product. Also, update us at the end of the burning season if you feel it is the right size for your place. FYI the door/gasket stuck shut on my Quad during the first small fire. I later learned you might want to do a small fire with the door cracked open. This will enable the paint to cure first and then the door gasket won't stick to it. Check with your dealer/installer. If you decide to do this you have to be monitor it 100% (don't leave it) for safety's sake.

 

[dlpz]

OK, this is it, last reply to this post. My wife says I have commitment problems, but I married her anyways.

Here's my quote:
Quad 3100 M - 1489.00
Blower - 264.00
DoubleWall inside - 201.72
Pad - 325.00
Outside Pipe including bracket ( I have to go up above a second peak in the house) - 701.81 (not including offsets)
Install - 550.00

Obviously this is worse case, can ditch the blower and double wall. Between material and time, settling on a pad is ok with me.

Check book at the ready but cold feet at the last minute. Where's the wiggle room between the buyer and the seller, how can I negotiate this down or can I?

 

[dlpz]

Well after plenty of considerations and flip flopping around I bought my stove today. I took advantage of Lowe's 50% sale and got a summer's heat nc-30. Bought it this morning and they delivered it at noon. The delivery guy drove the stove into my garage. its still boxed up, kid is sick so when he falls a sleep I'll take a better look at it. They had two floor models and one boxed up on the racks. All the pellet stoves were gone. Probably won't get installed until spring but that price is too good to pass up. Wife said "Are you happy now?" H*ll Yea!!

 

[MrBigLog]

wow thats a far cry from the quad you were looking at...good luck and happy burning

 

[dlpz]

Yeh, it sure is. But I won't feel so bad if we sell the house down the road and have to leave it. Plus I can recoup the cost of at least the stove in one cold month! It's like christmas all over again!