Ceramic Insulation/Wool inside Vermont Casting Cat (Encore) - importance for operation? Help!

[denisg]

Hi -

Just had my chimney swept by a local, reputable place. While cleaning out the debris from the chimney (via the stove), some loose pieces of ceramic insulation came out from behind the damper door. I spoke to a local VC retailer, and they mentioned that the cat sits inside of this insulation, and "shouldn't really be pulled out". However, what came out was above the cat, almost blocking the path taken by exhaust gases behind the damper.

I've searched all of the internet, and the hearth.com Q&A;sections, for anything on this internal ceramic wool insulation, and have found nothing.

How critical is this insulation to the proper functioning of the stove, and should it only 'cradle' the cat (and not be directly behind the damper?

Is it safe to use the stove without this damper insulation?

Thanks in advance for any help!!
Denis

 

[webbie]

The insulation is critical to a couple of things - it helps keep the temperatures high so that the cat functions better. It also helps protect the cast iron behind it from excessive temperatures.

Depending on the model, there is a whole preformed ceramic "casting" of spun materials that the Encore cat sits in. Our resident Encore specialist can perhaps post a parts breakdown of this assembly.

Oh, I think I found it - see #9 on enclosed drawing. It is an integral part of the stove and combustion system - certainly there are small parts of it which could break off and not affect things, but if it is more generally caved in or messed up, it needs replaced.

Also, damper itself DOES need rope gasket, but that is of a different type.

 

[denisg]

Thanks

I did see #9 in the manual, but figured it was made entirely of iron (and not made of a soft material). I'll be pulling out the cat tonight per the manual instructions and inspecting, as well as assessing the damage to #9.

I am familiar with the rope gasket on the damper (and it looks ok - but will be assessing again tonight).

Thanks for your quick reply!
Denis

 

[Gooserider]

Note that the cat should be pulled out gently once or twice a year and checked for debris and cleaned or blown out as needed. Do a search on posts by Elkimmeg about cleaning his VC stoves where he goes over the entire drill.

I'm not at all sure I'd be comfortable w/ a sweep job that entailed removing significant amounts of crud via the stove damper - it would seem to me like a significant risk of getting crud down into that cat combustor area where it doesn't belong, and / or damaging the refractory material package, which is a VERY expensive part...

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

the ceramic package should be replace and tou will gt many more years of us out of that stove I'm a bit puzzled here is this the first time the cat combustor was removed for cleaning?

If this was so, in all probability that stove never ran correctly. A clogged combustor will not function. Lack of maintance probably contributed to the deterioration
of your current combustor housing Not only should the combustor be cleaned, but vac the combustor housing compartment.. Clean up the thermatic probe sensor as well.
I clean mine at the start of the season and at mid point

How old is the stove? In the business this package is known as the dog house

 

[denisg]

Thanks Gooserider and elkimmeg for your replies...I believe the stove was purchased Spring of 2004. I've learned my lesson about getting a sweep done via the damper door!

I pulled apart the stove last night to check out the refractory package. There are two large, 2" inch holes at the top, horizontal surface of the refractory unit, which appear to have caused the random amounts of spun 'wool' that I have been finding.

I pulled the cat out, which was in one piece with no cracks (but very dirty), and noticed 3 drywall-type screws holding the front panel of the refractory unit onto the back half. Based on the parts diagram in the manual and above, this does not look right at all! I am thinking the previous owner (or perhaps a prior stove technician) "took apart" the refractory unit, and then reassembled with drywall screws.

I totally believe the stove never worked right last season. My theory as to how this all happened - with holes in the top of the refractory - is that subpar chimney sweepings led to crud falling through the cat and into the doghouse, which over time actually got clogged. Exhaust gases couldn't escape through the cat, through the bottom and back up the sides, so they eventually burned through the top of the refractory. Not sure how off base this is....but its a thought. I can post a few pics if anyone is interested for future reference purposes as well.

Next steps are to get it all fixed. Looks like the back of the stove has to come off to replace the refractory (elkimmeg, is this correct?). To ensure it is done right, and all appropriate seals and gaskets are replaced, I think I will call a dealer to come out and do it (its probably the best thing for the stove).

VC parts - are they all priced the same at MSRP? Or is it worth shopping around? Can anyone tell me what price I should expect to pay for a new refractory package (VC Part #: 1602510)?

THANKS!!

 

[webbie]

What was the warranty at the time of purchase? Maybe it is covered - maybe it is even covered as part of the cat warranty, which is mandated by EPA - just grasping at straws here.

That stuff is too fragile for my liking......now how about the top of it. Don't they (VC) install a piece of sheet metal or something over it, or is the rock wool exposed at the top (in other words, if something fell or was pushed down the pipe (like a chimney brush) would it hit and damage the ceramic wool.

These chambers are custom made from ceramic wood which is poured or pressed into shapes - some of them are created by gluing flat pieces together. This stuff holds up extremely well to high heat, but terribly to physical shock.

 

[elkimmeg]

Thee 3 dry wall screws are factory applied r to hold that front access panel in place

I have two here and they are one 8 years old the other 10 years old and in no way are they in the condition you describe

I suspect as do you the chimney sweep is not familiar with the stove he should have disconnected the connector pipe and sweep everything into a bucket plastic bag

sounds like he used a wire brush on your refractory package and ruined it or jammed the flue brush down so far it hit the top of the refractory package.

Amazing the Cat combustor was never cleaned before? Where do you live? I might be able to help you out find a cheaper price for the package

Before I do anything I will examine mine to see what is involved

 

[Gooserider]

It is possible to tackle the rebuild as a DIY project. It's pretty straightforward to take the stove apart and replace everything. However it is a messy job, and somewhat labor intensive - unfortunately the refractory package is enough in the middle of the stove that it will take a significant amount of dissassembly to get at it. If all that's wrong is your refractory package, and possibly the cat you will probably be looking at $1-200 for the refractory package, maybe a little less for the cat. But the labor to do it if you call the stove shop would probably be much more than the parts. Assuming you are reasonably good w/ tools you will probably find it worth doing yourself.

Pricing varies a bit, I've seen reports saying that one person rebuilding an older Encore found some parts cheaper on line and others cheaper at his local stove shop.

The cat may be just clogged w/ debris, or the catalyst may be worn out - depends on your habits and those of the previous owner. It certainly is worth trying to clean it and see how it does.

Gooserider

 

[webbie]

Also, it might be possible to patch a combustion chamber - if the holes are just at the top of it, then maybe just gluing another piece of 1/4" or so ceramic board on top about help - heck, I'm not going to spend hundreds myself unless I have to...

 

[seaken]

Thanks Gooserider and elkimmeg for your replies...I believe the stove was purchased Spring of 2004. I've learned my lesson about getting a sweep done via the damper door!

I pulled apart the stove last night to check out the refractory package. There are two large, 2" inch holes at the top, horizontal surface of the refractory unit, which appear to have caused the random amounts of spun 'wool' that I have been finding.

I pulled the cat out, which was in one piece with no cracks (but very dirty), and noticed 3 drywall-type screws holding the front panel of the refractory unit onto the back half. Based on the parts diagram in the manual and above, this does not look right at all! I am thinking the previous owner (or perhaps a prior stove technician) "took apart" the refractory unit, and then reassembled with drywall screws.

I totally believe the stove never worked right last season. My theory as to how this all happened - with holes in the top of the refractory - is that subpar chimney sweepings led to crud falling through the cat and into the doghouse, which over time actually got clogged. Exhaust gases couldn't escape through the cat, through the bottom and back up the sides, so they eventually burned through the top of the refractory. Not sure how off base this is....but its a thought. I can post a few pics if anyone is interested for future reference purposes as well.

Next steps are to get it all fixed. Looks like the back of the stove has to come off to replace the refractory (elkimmeg, is this correct?). To ensure it is done right, and all appropriate seals and gaskets are replaced, I think I will call a dealer to come out and do it (its probably the best thing for the stove).

VC parts - are they all priced the same at MSRP? Or is it worth shopping around? Can anyone tell me what price I should expect to pay for a new refractory package (VC Part #: 1602510)?

THANKS!!

The Encore often creates problems for the average chimney sweep. Too many sweeps do not understand how it works and won't make the effort to understand. Shame really. Anyway, the Refractory Package will have to be replaced. That package is not covered by the same warranty as the catalytic itself. You can expect to pay about $130 for that part. You do not need to take the back off, unless you think you need to do a rebuild. If purchased in 2004 it probably does not need a rebuild yet. You can remove the lower and upper firebacks and the package will come out from the inside. Put the new package in place, being careful to properly gasket and seal the air supply channel, and then replace the firebacks. The hardest part is the upper fireback. It is cemented to the top plate and the damper rod has to be aligned. But it shouldn't take more than a couple of hours for a novice.

I recently rebuilt an early model (Model 0028) while it sat in place in a customers living room. It took about 5 hours with me walking in and out back and forth to the truck to clean the parts, etc. In the shop is should take about 4 hours. Our price for a rebuild is over $500 for labor. Our price for an extensive service where all we do is remove the interior parts (firebacks, wear plates, refractory, etc.) is about $350. Some dealers charge less, some more. It depends on the cost of doing business in your region. A good chimney sweep could learn how to do this and his/her rates would likely be less since they have less overhead.

Good luck,
Sean

 

[buxbud2]

Good Morning Denis.

In a prior post you stated :

"I pulled the cat out, which was in one piece with no cracks (but very dirty), and noticed 3 drywall-type screws holding the front panel of the refractory unit onto the back half. Based on the parts diagram in the manual and above, this does not look right at all! I am thinking the previous owner (or perhaps a prior stove technician) “took apart” the refractory unit, and then reassembled with drywall screws."

Can you confirm the model number of your Encore? I have re-built these stoves myself being in the hearth biz for 15 years. What you describe sounds like an older model #0028. You mention above a previous owner or a prior stove tech. If the stove was purchased new in 2004, which is what appears to be the going assumption, I'm a bit confused. In 3 years there have been previous owners and service techs?? Regardless, it sounds as if the sweep may have damaged the unit. My experience says you ought to have the thing serviced from top to bottom. Get the refractory package replaced and get a new cat. The diagram provided in an earlier post shows the current model and you stated that it didn't look correct. I have attached a diagram of the older #0028 model. Does your unit look like this one??

 

[seaken]

Good Morning Denis.

In a prior post you stated :

"I pulled the cat out, which was in one piece with no cracks (but very dirty), and noticed 3 drywall-type screws holding the front panel of the refractory unit onto the back half. Based on the parts diagram in the manual and above, this does not look right at all! I am thinking the previous owner (or perhaps a prior stove technician) “took apart” the refractory unit, and then reassembled with drywall screws."

Can you confirm the model number of your Encore? I have re-built these stoves myself being in the hearth biz for 15 years. What you describe sounds like an older model #0028. You mention above a previous owner or a prior stove tech. If the stove was purchased new in 2004, which is what appears to be the going assumption, I'm a bit confused. In 3 years there have been previous owners and service techs?? Regardless, it sounds as if the sweep may have damaged the unit. My experience says you ought to have the thing serviced from top to bottom. Get the refractory package replaced and get a new cat. The diagram provided in an earlier post shows the current model and you stated that it didn't look correct. I have attached a diagram of the older #0028 model. Does your unit look like this one??

Welcome to the forum buxbud2! Glad to have another hearth professional aboard.

Sean

 

[denisg]

Hi buxbud2,

My mistake - my stove definitely matches that of the first picture (which I assume is a newer Encore). Definitely an Encore 2550, with a "shell" design on the lower fireback. Actually, in looking at the older assembly diagram you posted, if my stove only had part number 45 (refractory cover), I wouldn't be in the problem I am in (with two holes gouged in the top of the refractory).

To clarify the 3 year issue - we purchased the house (w/ stove) summer of 2006. Based on the copyright of the owner's manual (11/04), I assume it was installed in late-2004, early-2005 or so. We know it was used by the prior owner regularly, and we have receipts showing annual sweepings (but nothing specific to a cleaning of the stove). It is certainly possible that a prior chimney sweeper destroyed the refractory assembly. I unknowingly used the stove last winter and only realized the issue upon closer inspection after my recent sweep.

I don't plan on using it again, until I get the refractory assembly replaced (as a repair/patch, using additional non-combustible material, makes me a bit uneasy).

I plan on ordering a new refractory package in the next day or so...
Thanks
Denis


buxbud2 wrote:

Can you confirm the model number of your Encore? I have re-built these stoves myself being in the hearth biz for 15 years. What you describe sounds like an older model #0028. You mention above a previous owner or a prior stove tech. If the stove was purchased new in 2004, which is what appears to be the going assumption, I'm a bit confused. In 3 years there have been previous owners and service techs?? Regardless, it sounds as if the sweep may have damaged the unit. My experience says you ought to have the thing serviced from top to bottom. Get the refractory package replaced and get a new cat. The diagram provided in an earlier post shows the current model and you stated that it didn't look correct. I have attached a diagram of the older #0028 model. Does your unit look like this one??[/quote]

 

[denisg]

You can expect to pay about $130 for that part.

THANKS!! A local dealer quoted me about the same, so I feel pretty good!

You do not need to take the back off, unless you think you need to do a rebuild. If purchased in 2004 it probably does not need a rebuild yet. You can remove the lower and upper firebacks and the package will come out from the inside. Put the new package in place, being careful to properly gasket and seal the air supply channel, and then replace the firebacks. The hardest part is the upper fireback. It is cemented to the top plate and the damper rod has to be aligned. But it shouldn't take more than a couple of hours for a novice.

I am going to give it a shot...I didn't realize the upper is also cemented in...the lower had a bead of cement along the bottom as well (not sure if this is how it should have been), which I carefully scrapped away before removing the lower fireback.

Thanks Sean,
Denis

 

[BillSpohn]

I am in need of a replacement lower fireback for a Vermont Castings Defiant Encore - part number 1307416
It is a model 0028 with a Geisser Testing Labs label manufactured 7/11/86 to 4/25/90

I was told by a local wood stove shop that is warped, I find it hard to believe, but it does not allow me to fit the refractory back in.
Here are a couple photos is it really warped?

Where can I find a replacement part?

thanks!

 

[Gooserider]

I am in need of a replacement lower fireback for a Vermont Castings Defiant Encore - part number 1307416
It is a model 0028 with a Geisser Testing Labs label manufactured 7/11/86 to 4/25/90

I was told by a local wood stove shop that is warped, I find it hard to believe, but it does not allow me to fit the refractory back in.
Here are a couple photos is it really warped?

Where can I find a replacement part?

thanks!

Yup, that part is SERIOUSLY toasted... hang on to it, and you will be amazed when you get the new part and see the difference. I would suggest that you might also want to look at the damper and damper frame as well, the damper needs to fit tightly into the frame when closed, and if the fireback is that badly FUBARed it is not unlikely that the damper assembly might be as well. Also possible, though less likely are cracks or other damage to the side panels and other internal parts - your stove was definitely overfired in the past, probably severely and often... Check all parts for damage, it is a stove that can be restored to like new condition, but needs some real TLC.

For replacement parts, try Discount Stove Parts I've gotten VC stuff from them before and had good luck and fast service.

Gooserider

 

[seaken]

Yeah, you need to replace that fireback. I can see the oxidation and it is about out of life. It will damage the refractory chamber if you try to wedge it into place. Save the soft ceramic fiber gasketing in the rear of the fireback and put it in place in the new one.

Sean

 

[homebrewz]

Try to find the part at a local shop first. It will save you the shipping cost, plus they may beat discountstove.com's price.
These parts are cast iron, so its probably going to cost you $20 to $30 to ship it. Figure that into your price comparison.
If you can't find it locally, then discount stove will have it.