chimney fix

[philly_kid]

Hi, I've been looking on previous threads but still need help.

I had a chimney guy come and help vent my furnace a month ago. I also had him look at my newly discovered fireplace (Behind plaster) on the second floor of my 150 year old house. The chimney has a slight curve to the right and then goes up through the third and fourth floor dormer. You can see the whole chimney exit looking up from the second floor. It is completely unlined. He said that he would send down an 8" stainless steel liner (the opening is 14 by 17) to the second floor, break into the brick around the top of my firebox (if that is the appropriate term) and seal the liner - I assume by inserting a plate. He would also send down a stainless steel liner partway down the chamber of my furnace which is also unlined, again - I assume he would seal it using a plate. He would do all of this for 2200.

Fast forward one month. I researched chimneys and had some questions re: the instalation. He came again today and this time, personally (as opposed to an assistant) went on the roof and looked at the situation. His solution this time is to put in a steel rod 10 feet below the top of the chimney and drop terra cotta down to that level. He would put a cap/damper on the top. When I asked him why he suggested a ss insert last time and now he's telling me something different, he said that now that he is looking at the chimney himself and sees that it is in pretty good shape except for the top interior, there is not as much of a need to go all the way down. It will save me money to do it this way - 1200 quote. I asked him about code and insurance and without going into detail told me that it wouldn't be a problem. When I asked about insulation, he said that he would "seal" the bottom where the plate goes in if we went w/ the ss insert. BTW this guy came recommended by Angies list.

Now on to my many questions.

Can my chimney be unlined from the fireplace up approx 20 feet until the terra cotta kicks in?

Are there any code/insurance/safety issues I need to be concerned with?

My fireplace is only 13 inches deep. I'm a little worried about draft. As I mentioned the inside of the chimney is 14 by 17". The opening is 32 by 26 (832 inches SQ). I believe the terra cotta would be 11 by 14 (154 inches sq.) The 8" liner would be 16pi or 50 sq inches (right)? Should this impact my decision?

I'm used to seeing a door or flue at the top of the fireplace but there is no plan for one by the chimney guy. Do you need one?

What should I do?

 

[webbie]

You need to line the chimney - all the way to a place called the smoke chamber, which is usually a large area above the fireplace opening where it starts large and then gets smaller - however, there is sometimes no easy way to terminate a stainless liner way up there (3 feet or so above the fireplace), so in reality most liners are run down closer to the damper area.

OK, let me start by working backwards....what do you want to do with the fireplace? Are you certain you want to burn wood in it? If so, do you want it as a open fireplace or as a more efficient insert or stove?

Or, do you want to burn gas? - there are some really neat gas units designed for for shallow fireplaces.

The flue is much bigger than needed for that fireplace - my guess is that perhaps fireplaces on multiple floors may have originally vented into it.

There are options as far as the damper goes (the door you refer to).....

But first, let's confirm what you want to do with this fireplace.

The short answer is that you must line this all the way down.

 

[philly_kid]

Thanks for the reply -

We want the fireplace to represent the history of the house. To this end, we want to keep it as close to the original look as possible, but it's not a necessity. I would use an insert if it is the best solution.

We want to burn wood in it for atmosphere on special occasions and when the mood strikes us. We don't plan on using it as a heat source.

 

[webbie]

If you want to burn wood, then given the size of the fireplace, I would say that the 8" stainless liner is the way to go. This liner must be run down and somehow sealed so that it is just not hanging there.....There are dampers which can be installed into the pipe (at the top) and function using a cable which is pulled from the bottom.

Here is an example of a top-sealing damper:
http://www.bellfiresusa.com/parts/dampers.htm

As mentioned, the liner must somehow transition to the rectangular area which forms the upper part of the fireplace. Some companies make stock or custom hoods which fit into this area and accomplish the task.

Back to the gas option, you can keep the period look that way also....look at these fireplaces:

http://www.gascoals.net

 

[elkimmeg]

No liner can be installed in any unlined chimney without insulation and meeting UL 1777 listing.

You can not run an uninsulated line in any part of the chimney Since you are linning to applications in the same chimney,
both would require full liners and both are required to be insulated

I would first determine if you fireplace condition is safe before even considering proceeding further There could be condition issues masonry clearance issues.

the flue is sized in relationship to the opening of the fireplace after that is determined I can tell you the correct size liner required Very few masonry fireplaces can use an 8" liner

also I need to know the hight from the fireplace floor to the exit cap Size of the liner is determined by opening and height of the chimney in a graph scale

 

[philly_kid]

The height from the floor to the cap is 35 feet.

What kind of masonry issues do I have to be concerned with? I can see that the chimney is intact, but not in detail.

 

[webbie]

Elk, he gave the size 26x32 in the original post. He also said it was a 4-story house - based on this I assumed (rightly) a tall chimney. It is also extremely shallow in the style of a Rumford (13")

Since the chimney is very large, you might as well use a larger liner if you intend to burn wood in an open fireplace - 10" should be more than enough. You can get rectangle liner, but it is expensive and not needed in this application.

For a tall chimney like that, you could easily use the 12x rule (or more), which means that the flue size can be as small as 1/12 the size of the opening. 26x32 is about 800 square inches, and a 10" round has about 78+ sq inches, so you are closer to 1/10 - given that height this will work to beat the band!

Masonry Issues: Elk is saying that we have no way of knowing how thick the rear and side walls of the fireplace are, and where framing might be located in the walls. Elk and I have both seen fires causes by heat soaking through the back walls of fireplaces. Typical example: You use the fireplace lightly, and it is fine - then one day an ice storm comes and the power goes out - you then burn the fireplace hot for a day and night - and that causes a fire.

Enclosed pics show one that I inspected. This is another argument for putting a gas unit in! Also, a gas unit will require a much smaller liner.

 

[webbie]

Above pics show fire caused by wood being against the back of an interior fireplace. Second pic shows wood stud burnt - but my guess is that this fire started at the lowest part of pic# 1 where the wood floor framing was almost directly against the masonry back wall of the fireplace.

On the positive side of the equation, older and substantially built houses like yours are likely to have been built with fireplaces that were designed to be heavily used.

First things you want to look at - how thick is the rear wall of the fireplace? Is the rear of it outside the house? If not, then you really have to look closer....it may just be that there is no framing on the rear of the fireplace - that it is all masonry and then plastered over that. You can upload some pics and we can guess - but it needs to be inspected by a competent person. Unless you are 100% certain of the reputation and training, you might want to use a sweep or installer certified by the NCSG (national chimney sweep guild) or some other known expert.

 

[laynes69]

My sister was living with her boyfriend at the time when they entered some problems. They were trying to heat a home with an open fireplace, when I kept telling him to not do it. They had it roaring and my sis woke up at 2:00 am with smoke everywhere. When she went into the basement, there were flames shooting from under the fireplace down the floor joists under the bed. The standard brick had gotten so hot that it ignited the flooring underneat it. Luckily they survived and so did the house, but its a lesson learned hopefully for the both of them. An occasional fire is okay if everything is in good shape, but if you would ever decide to heat, then get an insert or stove. Like I said, that time they were lucky. The bad thing was he had a stove, but was too lazy to install the damn thing to heat the house.

 

[webbie]

Wow - I think this would happen with a lot of fireplace if they got used this way....and that's the problem....

A sweep or inspector cannot install or approve a job with the caveat "I'm not gonna use it hard", because someone just might - they might have house sitters or rent it out, or sell it. Even a 100% properly built "spec" masonry fireplace fails the same UL (temperature of wood framing) tests! - Still, even that "failure" would not nearly make wood ignite!

There are also other actions which can help- using a grate and letting a bed of ash always remain on the fireplace floor can help. So can a fireback, by protecting the rear wall. In the end, nothing can save a fool from himself (and I use the male term on purpose in this case)..... I have had customer who burn 25 cords of wood per year in an open fireplace.

Well, back to this thread - sounds like a very sane user who will likely burn less than a cord each year, but still we want the fireplace to meet at least minimum standards.

 

[elkimmeg]

With age mortar joints tend to disintegrated and powderer, Cracks can develop in either the mortar or bricks Many older fireboxes were not fire bricked lined either.
All factors have to be examined. Today clearances are predicated by fire bricks and solid masonry. Do yourself a favor get it checked out
Have professional advice give you a status report Once that issue is solved, then lets discuss liner options

 

[philly_kid]

I have attached 4 pictures which may be of use.

I had another guy come and give an estimate. He said he would, "remove existing firebox and hearth...cut floor and frame and pour concrete...build firebox using firebrick and used brick from hearth...supply and install new damper and coat smoke chamber...supply and install 10 inch stainless steel insert with cap and screen...seal in on top of smoke chamber... fix brick on the front..." cost 6600. Some of the reasoning behind this estimate (conveyed through my wife who was there): The wood floor dirctly in front of the fireplace is a hazard and needs to be replaced with firebrick, I guess the brick in the firebox is not firebrick. Does this make sense? Also, you might notice from the pictures, on the left hand side of the chimney (This chamber is not the one through which the fireplace vents - it vents through the furthest right of three chambers) there is a drywall covering of all the wires running to the third floor. On the right-hand side, there is a stud to which drywall will be attached to cover some plumbing running along the chimney. Are these (the wires and the stud) hazards? Will running a ss liner with insulation take away any potential fire hazards? Will an insulated liner make any leaks in the chimney a non-issue? Thanks.

 

[Gooserider]

I have attached 4 pictures which may be of use.

I had another guy come and give an estimate. He said he would, "remove existing firebox and hearth...cut floor and frame and pour concrete...build firebox using firebrick and used brick from hearth...supply and install new damper and coat smoke chamber...supply and install 10 inch stainless steel insert with cap and screen...seal in on top of smoke chamber... fix brick on the front..." cost 6600. Some of the reasoning behind this estimate (conveyed through my wife who was there): The wood floor dirctly in front of the fireplace is a hazard and needs to be replaced with firebrick, I guess the brick in the firebox is not firebrick. Does this make sense? Also, you might notice from the pictures, on the left hand side of the chimney (This chamber is not the one through which the fireplace vents - it vents through the furthest right of three chambers) there is a drywall covering of all the wires running to the third floor. On the right-hand side, there is a stud to which drywall will be attached to cover some plumbing running along the chimney. Are these (the wires and the stud) hazards? Will running a ss liner with insulation take away any potential fire hazards? Will an insulated liner make any leaks in the chimney a non-issue? Thanks.

Well, I'm not an expert, and pictures can be decieving, but it looks like you have a couple different ages of work there - the fireplace looks MUCH newer than the rest.

None of the brick that I could see looks like firebrick, and it looks like the existing hearth is narrower than current standards require.

I will defer to Elk on what codes require for clearances, etc. but I'd be suspicious of any combustibles touching the masonry. It MIGHT be better if the wood stud were replaced with a steel stud and you used firestop drywall instead of standard sheetrock, but that is just a guess.

An insulated SS liner will make fire hazards smaller, all though I don't know if it will make all the clearance issues go away, especially depending what is using those other flues, and will make internal problems with the chimney a non-problem, though you might still need to make repairs to the exterior, especially on the roof, since you do need to be structurally sound. The only potential issue with an SS liner is whether or not it would give you the needed area to use the existing firebox. If you get the firebox rebuilt, I would try to make the replacement a Rumsford type, which would be historically accurate and is supposedly the most efficient style masonry fireplace. Of course that still won't give you the heating power and efficiency of a modern insert or stove, but...

Gooserider

 

[fraxinus]

If available in your area, I'd also consider a poured liner rather than stainless steel. I had a 150+ year old chimney treated with the Supaflu process about four years ago and was very satisfied with both the installation and result. The price was comparable to stainless steel, but to me the great advantage of the poured liner is that it becomes an integral part of the chimney sealing any cracks, replacing deteriorated mortar and greatly strengthening the entire chimney. It also comes with a lifetime transferrable warranty. I have no financial or other connection to Supaflu except that of a very satisfied customer.

 

[philly_kid]

The bricks in the fireplace are not different than the bricks in the background wall - I sanded them.

 

[BrotherBart]

If available in your area, I'd also consider a poured liner rather than stainless steel. I had a 150+ year old chimney treated with the Supaflu process about four years ago and was very satisfied with both the installation and result. The price was comparable to stainless steel, but to me the great advantage of the poured liner is that it becomes an integral part of the chimney sealing any cracks, replacing deteriorated mortar and greatly strengthening the entire chimney. It also comes with a lifetime transferrable warranty. I have no financial or other connection to Supaflu except that of a very satisfied customer.

What does it cost to have a Supaflu poured?

 

[webbie]

A complete restoration of a fireplace like this is going to be up there in price almost no matter what you do. At first glance I have to concur somewhat with the guy who gave you the "complete redo" deal - just for comparison, my local builder said a new fireplace (on a new house) is about 12 grand now, and it would be a lot more added to an existing house like yours.

As we said at first, there do appear to be issues - like the fact that red brick should not be used as a firebox liner, etc. etc....

I think you have to part with the $$ to keep it as an open wood burning, but you might get by with 1/2 that amount with a small hearth stove or insert and a full liner...or gas and liner.

 

[philly_kid]

If I put in an insert and liner, could I use the fireplace as it is and still be safe?

 

[Gooserider]

If I put in an insert and liner, could I use the fireplace as it is and still be safe?

If you install an insert, you will essentially fill the existing firebox with the insert, and cover any remaining space with the surround. You would then burn inside the insert, which would be quite safe as long as you have installed it properly, connected it to a good insulated liner, etc. Indeed you would probably be as safe or safer than the original fireplace ever was.

Gooserider

 

[fraxinus]

When done four years ago, the Supaflu lining cost $1200. This was for an internal chimney of roughly 60 feet in height with no previous liner of any kind. The process also provided a cautionary tale involving old houses and old chimneys. When the pouring reached the second floor it became obvious to the installers that a leak had developed. The chimney on the second floor level had at some time in the past been boxed in with studs and sheetrock. After cutting through the sheetrock the installers discovered a long forgotten opening in the chimney which had been covered only with an iron plate. This had completely rusted out over time. For who knows how long the chimney had had a gaping hole in one of the upstairs bedrooms. According to the installers, discovering unknown dangers like this one is a frighteningly common occurence when they install the Supaflu lining.

 

[BrotherBart]

When done four years ago, the Supaflu lining cost $1200. This was for an internal chimney of roughly 60 feet in height with no previous liner of any kind.

Thanks. I always wondered since their does not seem to be a competent source around here for them. It sounds like the best twelve hundred bucks you ever spent.