Chimney liner for older chimney? (Picture heavy)

[Flylikeaneagle]

Howdy,

Nice looking forum you have here. I have a couple of questions about installing one of those stainless chimney liners in my chimney.

First some background:
House: 40 year old rambler with concrete/brick fireplace chimney. The concrete portion of the chimney is in the garage which is a semi-heated space (about 45-50 degrees in winter). The top 2-3 feet are of course above the roof and is brick/motor. Inspection of concrete portion seems to indicate it is in excellent shape, I can find no cracks or erosion. The outside brick portion is of course aged and weathered but looks structurally ‘ok’. There is some motor that has fallen out of the cracks in places, some cracks in the concrete top cap, and the flashing has seen better days cosmetically, though there are no leaks. Near as I can tell there is no type of “cleanout” on this chimney unless it may be at the base of the chimney in the crawlspace. There is no rain cap on the chimney. I have included a couple of pictures.

The dimensions of the chimney are as follows:
ID = 13.75” x 9.75”
Height/Length from “bottom” wherever that is? Hard to see down there… = 109.5” or I was able to slip the tape into a gap towards the front or woodstove side of the chimney and it measured 122”. I assume the 122” may have been through the original damper and to the top of the stove?

Wood Stove = Old Lopi that was in the house when we purchased it in about 1985. The serial plate on the stove says model = “Extended fireplace insert”. We REALLY like this stove and it has worked very well for us to date and would very much like to continue using it. It has a fan that draws air in from the bottom, circulates it around the back, up over the top and out to the room. The faceplates are not shown in the picture, they are 6-8” in width, have insulation in them and serve to “seal” the wood stove against the surface of the fireplace rock.

The damper on the stove is a sliding horizontal plate as you can see in the pictures. The opening of the damper looks to be about 8” in diameter at the top surface of the stove. There is no collar sticking up above the top surface of the stove. The collar which spans the space from the primary stove body to the outer stove body (the cavity that the fan pushes airy through) looks to be about 7” in diameter. The bricks that you see through the damper can be removed inside the stove I assume. The stove is 20 7/8” tall; the fireplace opening is 22 7/8” tall at best.

Goals:
- Install stainless chimney liner with the thought that is may improve the efficiency of the stove? Be easier to clean? Have a more positive path for the smoke to exhaust/better draw? I would be nice to improve the draw, but to be honest it seems to work “ok” as is, yet the fact that there is no positive connection between the top of the insert and the chimney has always bothered me a bit. It certainly doesn’t draw as well as the freestanding wood stove in my shop that has a 6” straight pipe to the roof.
- Remove rust from top of stove and damper, and repaint. (rain cap will help to prevent this in the future)

Question:

1. Can I expect better performance out of the system with a stainless liner pipe installed?

2. I understand the concept of using a stainless pipe sized to fit inside the existing chimney tile but I am confused as to how that pipe ultimately connects to the insert? The opening in the original chimney damper does not look very big to me. Will the original chimney damper need to be torched off? And even after that will the opening be enough to get a pipe through? I assume some sort of flex pipe is used to connect the straight piece of stainless pipe to the insert?

3. How does the flex pipe get fastened to the insert damper/hole? There is no collar on top of the stove and there is 2” at maximum space between the top of the stove and the opening of the fireplace so I don’t understand how this gets done? Does it get fastened from inside the stove maybe?

4. Assuming one gets the flex pipe hooked up, how will that affect annual cleaning of the new liner? It seems all the crud will just fall down the pipe and get trapped in the crooked flex pipe?

Any insights you can provide on this issue would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Wayne

 

[philaphire]

Was just going through the posts and noticed that no one replied to this - perhaps it just got buried or perhaps there are so many posts on here about this that a search would answer your questions. I have provided brief answers below...

[quote author="Flylikeaneagle" date="1220396840"]Howdy,


1. Can I expect better performance out of the system with a stainless liner pipe installed?

I would think so, from what I've read on here most folks who added a liner experience improved draft and performance.

2. I understand the concept of using a stainless pipe sized to fit inside the existing chimney tile but I am confused as to how that pipe ultimately connects to the insert? The opening in the original chimney damper does not look very big to me. Will the original chimney damper need to be torched off? And even after that will the opening be enough to get a pipe through? I assume some sort of flex pipe is used to connect the straight piece of stainless pipe to the insert?

Liner kits come with a stove collar connector. However, yes, your damper seems to be in the way. I would think if you called one of the suppliers like Rockford Chimney (that I and many on here have used) that they would know what to do with your stove or be able to customize something for you.

3. How does the flex pipe get fastened to the insert damper/hole? There is no collar on top of the stove and there is 2” at maximum space between the top of the stove and the opening of the fireplace so I don’t understand how this gets done? Does it get fastened from inside the stove maybe?

see above

4. Assuming one gets the flex pipe hooked up, how will that affect annual cleaning of the new liner? It seems all the crud will just fall down the pipe and get trapped in the crooked flex pipe?

Either you disconnect the pipe and tape a plastic bag on the end and brush everything down into that or you remove those baffle bricks and brush everything into your stove. The brush should do a good job of getting everything loose and pushing things through

Any insights you can provide on this issue would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Wayne

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

Was just going through the posts and noticed that no one replied to this - perhaps it just got buried or perhaps there are so many posts on here about this that a search would answer your questions. I have provided brief answers below...

Thanks for the reply, it was helpful. The searches I did turned up some info but nothing that specifically addressed the issue in this installation where there is no protruding collar above the top of the stove to connect the pipe with.

In addition, I'm unclear how people physically connect the liner with the top of the stove when there is not enough clearance to get your hands in there to fasten the liner to the top of the stove (if it had a collar).

Thanks again
Wayne

 

[philaphire]

What's in the way? You usually have to cut some of the fireplace damper out or take the whole thing out if possible. Also, if there's enough "play" you can pull the liner down a bit further than you need to in order to connect it and then push everything back in.

 

[cmonSTART]

Wow that is a very nice looking stove. Love the glass etching.

 

[BrotherBart]

That stove top damper is going to be a show stopper. When those stoves were designed everybody was just making them to be shoved into the fireplace. No thought of ever hooking a liner/pipe to the top of them. With the added draft, never spec'ed into the design of the stove, and the loss of the damper for control of it that pup could get real hot real fast.

 

[chocolateporcupine]

From the looks of your pic's, I'd say you have no room to make the final mech. connection to the top of the stove once its inside the fireplace; you can't bend the flex liner enough--even if you had the clearance!! I am assuming that there is no additional sourround( cover plate to take up additional gap ) over the insert, so you'd have to remove brick at stove top level from the garage side to complete the connection( brick replaced after screws and sealant in place ) through that area. This would have to be a considerable opening to get to all areas on the stove top--hands must reach into fireplace. I was prepared to do just that for my old insert when a man at work decided to sell his beautiful Alladin Quadra-Fire for $500 on payments!! It has a spacious surround above the unit. Please, don't be afraid to use your gorgeous Lopi for heating; just be careful to not dampen down (any air controls) so far that you cause a dangerous ammount of creosote deposits. Burn good, dry hardwoods regularly. Use insulation to seal the cracks around the insert. Lastly, don't be afraid to go to the archives and asks questions along the way--these guys are helpful on this site!

 

[begreen]

That stove is a classic. It would be great if those doors could be mounted to a modern EPA Lopi.

The stove will not perform like a newer stove, but if you want to keep it, what is the clearance between the stove top and the fireplace opening? If there is enough room, you may be able to have a custom, stainless, flue adapter made to transition from the dampered exhaust to the new liner. The transition box would need to cover the sliding damper plate and flue opening. It would need a notch to accomodate the damper control rod. The liner attachment collar should be in alignment with the current flue opening on the stove.

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

Thanks very much for the replies, I really do appreciate all the input on this issue.

To answer some of the questions...

With regard to the flue opening in the existing mortar chimney I climbed in there today and tried to take some better pictures. The lever you see in the picture pivots on the flatbar that spans the gap across the flue opening between the steel dome and the brick. This lever is not fastened to anything and just flops around. I assume it may have been the handle to the original steel flue plate???

When the insert is installed the damper opening on the insert is roughly centered under this brace/lever.

I measured the opening that the liner would have to pass through. While I could partially see up to the top of the chimney if I got my head right against the back wall, it sure doesn't look like anything thing close to a straight shot down the chimney and into the insert. It looks to me like the liner will need to be bent to get through that opening and then straightened up again to attached to the insert.

This shot is taken up against the back wall. The back wall curves as it gets near the top and connects with the steel dome.

Stove measurements and fireplace opening. As you can see there is only 2.25" of clearance between the tallest part of the stove top plate which is the damper rod and the top of the fireplace opening. Further, once the stove is slid in place this clearance is even less because the flange to mount the face piece is even higher, at which point the clearance becomes 1.875".

Found this trap door thingy when cleaning out the bottom of the fireplace today. Looks like it is supposed to pivot open. I pried on it a bit and started to bend the metal because it is rusted in there. Maybe some sort of a clean out I assume? Wonder if there is a door in the chimney at the very bottom of the chimney down in the crawl space to clean out...

As you can see from the pictures, there is brick lining on the inside of the fireplace, and this is what the chimney looks like on the other side, in the garage.

So, I see the issues as:
- can the liner be bent such that it will go through the opening in the chimney and straightened to attach to the stove.

- Assuming the liner can be bent AND an appliance attachment method is found, is there enough room to even do the attachment through the front of the fireplace. And if not, how much trouble would it be to bust a hole through the backside of the chimney (concrete blocks) AND through the brick lining in order to get an arm in there to make the attachment.

- Finally, how to attach the liner to the insert while leaving the damper operational. As suggested above, removing the damper and adding the liner could cause operational problems. The damper needs to stay, even while running the stove all these years without a liner, the damper was used frequently to help throttle the stove at times. Running the stove wide open with just the front air inlets for control won't work on this stove.

As BeGreen suggested, I may be able to fabricate some sort of connector that would have a slot in it the width of the sliding damper plate and high enough to clear the rod. The only thing is this would not be a totally "air tight" connection, but as a practical matter I don't know that this small of an opening would affect performance much? Whatever is fabricated it would have to be low profile if it is to be installed on the stove before the stove is slid into place.

Another thought is while looking through the videos on the linerdepot site they showed an appliance connector that was some sort of "cast iron dome" which looked to just set down over the stove opening and just sits flat on top of the stove. I did not see and mechanical fastening of the dome to the stove top, it may be that they figure the weight of the cast iron will hold it down? I have not been able to get the specs on this appliance connector yet (dimensions) but thought maybe if it were wide enough that I could grind a slot out for the damper in the front of the connector.

I did receive a response from linerdepot but they simply said that I need the, "11' x 8" kit". I replied with some follow up info and the pictures in this post to see if they could shine any light on the subject. They must run into all kinds of connection issues in that line of work.

Got to wondering how new inserts are installed these days? Are they small enough that you can reach over the top of them to connect the liner through the front of the fireplace opening?

Thanks
Wayne

 

[BrotherBart]

I have the $90 cast iron "dome". I used it to install a liner on my old pre-EPA insert before it and the dome got relegated to the back yard as a meat smoker and replaced. With mine the slide damper was inside the stove outlet, not on top like yours so I could use it. Didn't help when the increased draft and a crack in the firebox let the stove run away on me. I spent $400 bucks trying to do what you are trying to do and ended up having to buy a new stove.

Any slot you cut is just going to be a cold air leaking, creosote making hole blowing right up the liner.

It is new stove time. That old hoss has paid off the six hundred bucks it originally cost many times.

 

[webbie]

OK, let's assume...for a minute, you are on a desert island and have to install this beast.....

It would be possible to cut or allow some sort of a slot in a boot or custom boot (some companies will make them out of stainless for you)....which would work. Sure, it will leak some air in, but the effect will be similar to that of a slightly open barometric damper....in other words, it is unlikely to hurt things much.

But there is a lot of wisdom in using a smaller liner (6") and saving money, time and hassle....with a new stove. Heck, you could probably sell that thing for a few bucks....

The cleanout door on the bottom of the fireplace can be removed and a sheet of metal placed over it......seal with silicone if you like, then slip insert over it.

Installing ANY insert can be an art. Many times we would remove the baffles....then have the liner connector in just the right place....when the stove is place in, we would reach up through the flue collar and pull it down. Lots of other tricks can be learned once you install a couple hundred of 'em.

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

Well I'm just about out of air speed and altitude on this deal.

One last idea.
I mocked this up with some steel from the shop to get some idea of how it would affect the overall height of the stove.

The idea here is to fabricate a box that is welded over the top of the entire damper assembly. The angle iron would form the perimeter four sided frame. The front piece of angle iron would have to be notched (or use two pieces of angle iron, one on each side of the rod for the front) for clearance of the damper rod. Then a flat plate (depicted by the flat bar in the picture) would be welded on top of the angle iron. This would seal the entire assembly except for the slot that the rod passes through. A 6" hole would be cut in the flat plate and a .75" tall collar would be welded to the flat plate to accept a 6" liner.

The top of this collar would then be the tallest part of the stove, putting the new overall stove height at 21.50. Recall that the fireplace opening is 22.625 giving 1.125 of clearance to shove the stove into the fireplace opening. Recall that the flange for the exterior stove face plate sticks up and is located right under the front opening of the fireplace when the stove is in position. There is a 1.875 space at this point that a long bladed screwdriver or long 1/4 drive extension could be put through to tighten the clamp on the liner.

The trick will be putting the end of the liner down over the new collar on the stove. The only way to do this is to reach into the stove to the opening, use some sort of the tool that can be stuck up through the hole in the stove and into the liner. Said tool would have to expand inside the liner with enough friction to hold enough that the liner could be pulled down over the collar.

The clamp would be put in place before this is done of course and then the clamp would have to be manipulated into place using long screwdrivers or something and then tightened once it is held in place somehow. The stove is quite deep, and if I put my shoulder right up against the door opening I can reach back to the flue opening in the stove but I cannot reach up through the hole with my hand very well.

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

If a new stove is the answer here then that will not happen this year, or possibly even next year. In that case I'll just have to reinstall the stove as is and use it for the next few years while saving for a new stove I guess. It worked ok for the previous 20 + years, I guess it can work that way for another couple of years.

In fact I should probably just do that now anyway as it is getting close to heating season. I should:

1. sand/grind the rust off the top of the stove and repaint.
2. clean the existing tile lined masonry chimney.
3. possibly install a rain cap on the existing masonry chimney to keep the rain out.

This would give me the next couple of years to research new inserts and save up some money for one. Or decide to take a stab at installing the old Lopi with a liner using the above idea.

I'm not worried about getting rid of the Lopi as I can just take it down the to steel scrap yard down the hill from us. I'm half tempted to weld some legs on it and replace the epa certified, installed to code, secondary burn, free standing wood stove in my shop. That epa stove works ok but takes short 14.5" pieces of wood and will not take much of a wood load like the old Lopi does. But I suppose replacing an epa stove with an old stove doesn't make much sense...

With regard to cleaning this existing tile lined masonry chimney, can I buy a cleaning kit with the necessary brushes and rods from home depot, lowes, or the stove shop? The chimney is 13.75 x 9.75 ID.

Bonus question:
This is the top face plate that rests up against the front of the fireplace opening to "seal" it. You can see the strip of insulation that lays inside the back of the face plate. I'm thinking about using new insulation when I reinstall the stove as the old is a bit compressed. Is this insulation some special type of insulation? Heat resistant or something?

Thanks

 

[BrotherBart]

If you are going to use the insert then blow off the liner adapter mod and just continue to burn in it as a "slammer" installation without a liner. Burn dry wood with plenty of air and use liberal amounts of Anti-Creo-Sote to hold down the glazing of the creosote in the chimney. Brushes and rods are available at Lowe's. The rods run just shy of seven dollars a two foot section.

Hit the roof once a month to keep up with accumulation in the chimney and realize that you are going to have to pull the insert every time you clean the chimney.

Did it that way for over twenty years. You couldn't pay me to go back to doing that.

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

If you are going to use the insert then blow off the liner adapter mod and just continue to burn in it as a "slammer" installation without a liner. Burn dry wood with plenty of air and use liberal amounts of Anti-Creo-Sote to hold down the glazing of the creosote in the chimney. Brushes and rods are available at Lowe's. The rods run just shy of seven dollars a two foot section.

Hit the roof once a month to keep up with accumulation in the chimney and realize that you are going to have to pull the insert every time you clean the chimney.

What about the adapter mod, is there some type of tool you guys use that can go up through the opening in the stove and grasp the insides of the liner just above the end/lip of the liner to pull it down around the collar?

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

Well now, I decided to go look at new Lopi stoves this afternoon...

I managed to find the new model of my old stove. The new stove is 5" wider than my stove, and 3/4" taller. My stove is at least 10" deeper. The new stove only has a 7" horizontal plate that can be used to cook on where the old stove has a 10" ledge. The new stove has the secondary combustion tubes and the very small fire box that will only accept logs put in crosswise.

Other than that the basic box, fan, etc are pretty much the same. The new stove has the damper plate assembly enclosed in the flue vent collar, which is a 6" flue vent like all the other stoves these days. Enclosing my damper assembly on the old stove per the previous post would essentially do the same thing.

$4598 including the stainless liner, installed...

Lets say I save $50 per month on my electric heating bill for this smallish well insulated house. At $600 per year it would take 7.6 years to cover the cost of a new stove. And that $50 may be a generous figure. Yes, I know there other reasons to heat with wood besides economic ones.

So...

Any idea where I can get weld-on 6" flue vent collars??? Looking at the flue vent collars on the stoves in the store they look suspiciously like well casing? Is it well casing that's used for these collars?

The vent collars on the stoves in the store had one screw hole on each side of the collar. I take it there is only two screws used to fasten the stainless liner to the stove collar?

If my chimney is mostly enclosed in a heated area with the exception of the last 2-3' is it really worth using an insulation wrap on a 6" stainless liner?

How hard is this liner to bend when I have to bend it a bit to get it through the flue opening and then again to straiten it so it can be connected to the flue vent collar on the stove?

Some of the installation instructions I've been reading call for a block-off plate to be used, but it looks like the block-off plates are only usually used when venting into a masonry chimney???

Thanks much
Wayne

 

[begreen]

$4500 for a small lopi and installation? Is this for a 3 story house? That sounds a bit high. I'd drop the Lopi dealer and consider putting in a Pacific Energy D1 insert. You could stub it in for under $2100, or if you are handy install it with full liner for under $2600. The D1 will let you load crosswise or lengthwise and has great burntimes.

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacins.htm

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

$4500 for a small lopi and installation? Is this for a 3 story house?

Single story house. Lopi model second from the largest size, 1200-2250 sq ft., 2.9 cubic foot firebox (less than half the size of the firebox on my existing Lopi).

Lopi freedom = 2899
Blower = 265
1 story liner = 599
Install = 475

plus tax

It was store operations manager I was dealing with, he claimed their business is up 200% with all the people trying frantically to change over to wood heat because of energy prices. Said there is great concern over product availability from the manufactures to meet demand this year. Claims that in about two weeks will be the big rush. His installers are currently 2-3 weeks out and anticipates them being 6-8 weeks out within another couple of weeks.

 

[begreen]

I think there may be a possible error in firebox size. I don't remember any 6 cu ft Lopi fireboxes, but maybe I missed one. I agree there is a rush on stoves, but Western WA ain't New England. Our heating costs aren't anything like the East Coast. However, their prices aren't that bad except for the stove. $3164 for a steel insert is pretty pricey. Especially considering it's made locally. 3 cu ft PE Summit insert with standard blower is about $2400.

 

[iceman]

remember new epa stoves use less wood for equal if not more heat..... you can install yourself will be a breeze as you have done most of the homework
look at other stoves

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

Old Stove gets New Life...

Thought I'd update this as we have been using the stove for a couple of months now and it is working good with the new liner. I ended up fabricating a new damper enclosure that would allow the use of the existing damper and provided the means to hook up to the 8" appliance connector. There was not a lot of clearance between the top of the stove and the fireplace opening, so I had to be conscious of the total overall height of the unit when done. Ended up with 1/4 - 3/8" clearance between the top of the new damper enclosure and the top of the fireplace opening.

Used to look like this:

Now looks like this:

Installed:

Wayne

 

[Metal]

Nice work, do you have any pics from a little farther away so we can see the stove installed.

 

[Rudyjr]

Wayne,Thats nice work, you should be real proud of that. I too would like to see some pictures of it installed. Merry Christmas, Jim

 

[LeonMSPT]

The adaptor between the liner and my insert is absolutely inaccessible. The surround is brick... they made the hole the size of the insert. It's pretty, and a pain in the butt until one figures out that from inside you can do alot.

The adaptor actually has two "handles" welded inside to grab and pull the thing down into the insert. Problem was, no way to screw it in there.

Problem solved... 1/8 inch drill bit and two stainless phillips head screws later, secure... one on each side. Not going anywhere.

At the angle it all comes together, when I bought the house it took a few burns to figure out there was a problem. One night the thing took off, and it really did. Sounded like a "Blue Angels" jet on full afterburner...

It REALLY roared when I shut the air off to it. Turned out there was a 1 inch gap between the liner and the insert. More noise than danger, and it burned itself out... after that, each time I went to light the thing, I'd reach in and give the liner a yank to make sure it was in place. Heating and cooling, expansion and contraction, would walk it right out over a few cycles. Figured out how to reach in with the hook on the poker and pull it back down.

Needed a fix, and necessity is the mother of all inventions.

Your chimney didn't look too dirty for a slammer install. Must have burned hot and seasoned wood.

I did my parent's house last year... they had an "Old Mill" insert, with a damper on top like yours.

Dad burns about half as much wood as he did with the "Old Mill". Cleaning the chimney takes about twenty minutes. Never, ever, any smoke or odor in the house now.

 

[Flylikeaneagle]

The adaptor between the liner and my insert is absolutely inaccessible. The surround is brick... they made the hole the size of the insert. It's pretty, and a pain in the butt until one figures out that from inside you can do alot.

The adapter actually has two "handles" welded inside to grab and pull the thing down into the insert. Problem was, no way to screw it in there.

Problem solved... 1/8 inch drill bit and two stainless phillips head screws later, secure... one on each side. Not going anywhere.

Yes, I put three bolts through the appliance connector to make sure the thing stayed seated fully in the stove collar. I had two stove installers scoff at using screws to hold the adapter in the collar stating that it was overkill and not necessary. While it is true that some of the weight of the liner itself holds the adapter into the collar, I only wanted to do this once and made absolutely certain the adapter was fully seated in the collar and then drilled three through holes into the adapter for the bolts. I pre-drilled the holes in the collar in a location that I thought might be somewhat accessible, once the stove was placed then drilled the holes through the adapter once installed. Couldn't get any sort of drill or flex extension in there and had to use a dremel with a motorized extension thingy to drill those holes.

I found the key to this install was to position the liner/adapter as close as possible to where it needed to be before sliding the stove in the hole. My son and I spent quite a bit of time positioning that liner, lots of measuring, remeasuring, and tweaking the liner. I learned that even though these liners have the word "flexible" in their name, it doesn't mean they are actually flexible, at least by my definition of flexible. Got the liner positioned just right and then suspended it just above the height of the stove collar before sliding the stove into the hole. Released the liner and it dropped the 2" or so right into the collar.

I'll try and get some pictures of it installed.