1. Welcome Hearth.com Guests and Visitors - Please enjoy our forums!
    Hearth.com GOLD Sponsors who help bring the site content to you:
    Hearthstone Soapstone and Cast-Iron stoves( Wood, Gas or Pellet Stoves and Inserts)
    Caluwe - Passion for Fire and Water ( Pellet and Wood Hydronic and Space Heating)

Congressional inaction

Post in 'The Green Room' started by Dune, Aug 17, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,790
    Loc:
    Commonwealth Of Massachussetts
    What the heck is wrong with congress? Eight times this year the extension of the renewable energy tax credit bill has failed to pass. It expires in December of this year. Who do these people listen to, the oil companies or the people, and do any of us try to influence them at all? My representative, Delahunt, has never even given the courtesy of a return phone call or even a form letter. Meanwhile all kinds of green startups are on hold, unable to get bank financing because of congress's inaction. And what about the food for fuel program stuffed down our throats, causing higher food and fuel prices and poorer gas mileage. Why not just admit it was a mistake and end it immediately? Or even not admit it was a mistake but end it anyhow. We are in far too desperate a situation for special interests to continue to prevail. Call or write your local bozo and let them know you vote.

    Helpful Sponsor Ads!





  2. retiredff

    retiredff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    80
    Loc:
    60 miles SE of Indy
    I agree 100%. Congress is paid off by big business/lobbyists! Our only hope as taxpayers/voters is to vote out the current group of lifers/leaches/do-nothings and vote in some new people with instructions as to what the people want. After all, they do work for us...
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,289
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    I'm certain folks know how the vote went.....the Dems tried to pass it eight times, and the GOP kicked it down because they do not want the tax credits paid for (by rolling back big oil tax breaks given when oil was cheap).....

    Not trying to be partisan about it, but it is important to note exactly what has happened. The same folks jumping up and down to drill more are somehow silent when it comes to this....

    http://tinyurl.com/6o7ele

    The 7 earlier attempts were blocked by the GOP for other reasons, while the current one they claim it must allow offshore drilling.....always an excuse! This is a RENEWABLE energy bill, and you can always pass other energy bills later.
  4. velvetfoot

    velvetfoot Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,538
    Loc:
    Sand Lake, NY
    Go Nuclear Power!
  5. retiredff

    retiredff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    80
    Loc:
    60 miles SE of Indy
    I would go along with nuke power if and when they find a way to dispose of the spent rods, or find a use for it. Burying it won't work.
  6. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,289
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Well, once you ask for a fuel life solution, they will hem and haw and say "we'll figure it out"....the truth is they don't have a solution, nor do they expect to....AND, any solution which is even 1/2 way reasonable adds so much to the cost of the power that Nukes become just one more way of borrowing from our children and future generations.

    Big in the news lately - some MASSIVE solar plants being built in the southwest and Ca.

    It is true, however, that the holdups on the renewable tax credits are slowing down our potential progress. What a shame.
  7. Catskill

    Catskill New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Loc:
    Northern NJ / Northern Catskills NY
    Doesn't the fuel come out of the ground in the first place?

    Edit: Agreeing with the original poster, the govt need to get off their @ss asap and and bring alt. energy front and center with a comprehensive policy.
  8. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,289
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Sure, Uranium, Anthrax and lots of other stuff is very "natural".

    Tetrodotoxin is another good natural seafood.

    We could always powder the waste and have folks sprinkle it on their Wheaties......
  9. velvetfoot

    velvetfoot Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,538
    Loc:
    Sand Lake, NY
    Reprocess the spent fuel, like Iran plans to, lol.
    Electric cars, electric heat, electric everything.
    Energy independence, no human-caused global warming (for you misled believers).
    Plus, you wouldn't have wind turbines cluttering up the view off Martha's Vineyard.
  10. Catskill

    Catskill New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Loc:
    Northern NJ / Northern Catskills NY
    Go getum' Velvetfoot! :coolgrin:
  11. Turbozcs2003

    Turbozcs2003 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    80
    Loc:
    southernMaine
    Pelosi closed congress for "vacation" because she didnt want a vote on drilling:)

    I agree we should get 100% write off on any energy upgrade for our homes. Insualtion, heating systems etc should be on the table.

    Also nukes sound good to me, along with new refineries, offshore rigs etc.


    time for multi-tasked approach instead of politics as usual.
  12. smokinj

    smokinj Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    15,972
    Loc:
    Anderson, Indiana
    renewable engery will work but your right they will some how blow it in congress. a good system for my area (wind and solor grid tied 15000.00) some tax breaks and Iam all in.
  13. TMonter

    TMonter Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,430
    Loc:
    Hayden, ID
    We already do but the problem is reprocessing produces a lot of high level waste.

    Look into Lake Karachay in Russia for an example.

    Electric cars are not viable without a viable storage medium
  14. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,790
    Loc:
    Commonwealth Of Massachussetts
    Not to be disagreeable but what do you mean by a viable storage medium? Are you saying there are no viable batterys for electric cars? Electric cars are exremely viable today, and are getting better all the time. Electric cars and trucks is the most important component in any plan to burn less oil. The average american drives 30 miles a day, and even a cheesy converted electric car with old fashioned lead acid batteries will go 50 miles. Modern lithium ion batteries will go 200 miles on a single charge.
  15. TMonter

    TMonter Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,430
    Loc:
    Hayden, ID
    At what cost? Viable means it must be cost effective, not just possible.

    If a 50 mile range were that easy for a reasonable cost electric cars would be widespread. They aren't. Even a standard Lead-Acid battery has a relatively high cost per unit of energy.

    Viable also means it has to be at or below the cost of a gasoline automobile, must have the option for a 300 mile range and must not have a high upkeep cost.

    Lets be realistic, there currently is no viable electric car in the marketplace. We need an honest to goodness solution, not pie-in-the-sky claims or rhetoric.

    P.S. Please don't trot out the Tesla, it's a $100,000 toy that is not a marketable car for most people.
  16. velvetfoot

    velvetfoot Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,538
    Loc:
    Sand Lake, NY
    You will be converting water into hydrogen and oxygen with the limitless and cost-effective electricity produced by nuclear power.
    If you want to take a long drive, it will be on hydrogen.
    It's not a matter for the dilettantes anymore.
    It is a matter of survival.

    Go nuclear!
  17. TMonter

    TMonter Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,430
    Loc:
    Hayden, ID
    Hydrogen has the same problem as batteries currently, it cannot be stored effectively and the evaporation rates in current storage medium is unacceptable. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here but as I said we need realistic solutions not rhetoric.
  18. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,289
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Of course, the rest of the world will claim they should do the same, and it will awfully hard to stop even more nuclear proliferation. But the air will be cleaner until a nuclear war starts.

    The fact is that the "free market" will not allow nukes to grow, because no sane company would want to take responsibility for the future storage of the waste. And, although this may be hard to believe, civilization will not come to an end if we use less energy per capita than we do today.

    Most of this stuff is already baked into the cake. Conservation and natural gas are the bridge fuels, while a mix of renewables along with oil will be the future......at least for the next 2 generations or so. It is highly doubtful that nuclear will grow at the same rate as renewables, again because people (consumer) and companies don't want it (they don't want to pay for it long term).

    Solve the waste problem, and then let us know......until then, it is empty rhetoric. Survival is not at stake.....if you don't get a Harman (or a nuke plant) tomorrow.
  19. velvetfoot

    velvetfoot Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,538
    Loc:
    Sand Lake, NY
    Rhetoric? Nuclear power is still providing a significant percentage of US electricity, despite the fact that no new nuke here in the US has been built for a number of years. Other countries, sure, but not us. We've got 1000 mW natural gas plants sucking down all that high quality fuel.

    If it's cloudy, (or night!), or windless, these units are still cranking out the energy. The NRC has accepted applications for 15 new nuke plants and there are more in the pipeline, so to speak: http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/new-licensing/new-licensing-files/expected-new-rx-applications.pdf

    Sure, coal may be a little cheaper now, but wait 'til the bill comes for the new plants that will have to be built to satisfy the enviro people, never mind costs for sequestering the massive amounts of CO2 for the human-caused global warming fuzzy headed people. I've lived next to oil, coal and nuke plants, and would much prefer the nuke.

    Nuclear can power the hydrogen economy, and you could be driving a fuel cell or hydrogen powered car before too long. I was parked next to a Honda fuel cell car for a while at work, but never drove it.

    The federal government will support the new nukes-it is now a matter of national security.

    The time is now for the resurgence of nuclear power. It'll power your Chevy Volt: www.Chevrolet.com/electriccar .

    Be positive for the future! We don't have to burn all the forests to stay warm!

    http://www.nei.org/
  20. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,289
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Rhetoric because the chances that a lot will be built - given the pushback caused by no one wanting the waste stored in their backyard - are small IMHO.

    Not claiming that they are insignificant now.....the facts are out there, they are a part of the mix. But, repeating once again, we have not paid for the present plants because we have not figured out how to dispose of their waste. How can we possibly figure out the economics of something where the waste must be protected for more years than man has existed! A tough one!

    Would people want nukes if the true cost was double or triple the cost? I think the answer is clear - they would not. So the choice is to, once again, completely forget about the "debt" and the legacy we are leaving for our children, just so we can waste more today....or, come to our sense and do true life-cycle costing.

    As everyone knows, the only reason nukes even can exist is that the "nanny state" government stands behind them as far as insurance. In the "free market", they cannot exist. I was under the impression that most folks here didn't like all that "nanny state" business, and they think technology should pretty much prove its' merits or else go the way of the dodo bird. It's one thing for government to help create an industry, but for them to use taxpayer money for 10's of thousands of years to "insure" the nuke plants is going a little overboard IMHO.
  21. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,790
    Loc:
    Commonwealth Of Massachussetts
    Velvetfoot, Thanks for the link to the Volt. Good to get updated on that. Tmonter, DIYelectric car forum.com, lists seven companies selling ready to drive, all electric cars, one of which has a range of over 300 miles/charge. Is there room for improvement, of course. Is the technology viable today? Yes, resoundingly so. What is not viable today and never will be is hydrogen fuel cell tech. This is just wool over our eyes, by the gov. and the oil and car companys. Just a big distraction, a promise to keep us waiting, using oil and waiting for the mythical fuel cell which will solve everything someday(not).
  22. mbcijim

    mbcijim Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2008
    Messages:
    419
    Loc:
    Schuylkill County, Pa
    You say you're trying not to be partisan, but you are. You could turn the statement around if you are pro-drilling and say "The Democrats want renewables, but they won't drill..." I think statements like yours (and the vice-versa statement) are what are destroying this country. Your both wrong... and right. Why can't we have both renewables and more drilling? Because R's and D's can't give on anything. Let's cooperate. It may mean giving a little instead of polarizing the other side.

    And second of all, you are perpetuating the myth (by your other statements in this post) that creating renewable electric fuels solves the oil transporation problem. They don't. Just because we build a solar plant to add 800 MW of electric to the grid doesn't help move one car from California to Florida. The two fuels have absolutely nothing to do with each other. So solving one problem doesn't solves the other.
  23. tkirk22

    tkirk22 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    299
    Loc:
    VA Mountains
    I just picked up a Popular Mechanics magazine, and indeed Hydrogen fuel cells are just around the corner. It looks like a fairly simple process that could be implemented in months if we wanted.

    One thing that I forgot to mention is that the magazine is 50 years old from 1958. :roll:
  24. Telco

    Telco New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    164
    Loc:
    Okiehomey
    The R's said they'd go with the renewable if more drilling is allowed, so it's in the D's court. IF they put it in, then they can get the renewable act passed. No problem.

    So far as nuke fuel, Carter signed an order saying the US won't be involved in fuel reprocessing. End result: 30 years of no progress, and a buildup of nuclear waste. Fuel reprocessing would have solved some of the problem with storing nuke waste. So, end the ban on reprocessing, and let's start building those breeder reactors. With them, we can stop using petroleum for non-motive uses like we do now. Picture the usage of petroleum if the entire northeast were no longer burning fuel oil to heat their homes. That's 23 percent of the current use of petroleum in the US. If natural gas were no longer used in the home, and all houses were heated with electricity instead, that natural gas could be used for this hydrogen economy or for other motive fuel uses.

    And I'm not saying go nuke and call it a done deal. That BMW plant discussed in another thread is an outstanding way of doing things too. We need more juice in the daytime at night anyway, at least until the plugin car really takes off, so this would help build the bridge to the future.

    The biggest problem I see is nobody wants to implement an imperfect solution. As Soviet Admiral Sergei Georgievich Gorshkov said, "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." The problem with energy is nobody wants to do anything new unless it emits no pollution, is completely invisible and provides all power for all needs, right off the bat, and will fulfill all our needs forever and ever. We have nothing like this now. So we need to go with the imperfect solutions that are good enough RIGHT NOW, while striving for better. When we have better, implement it then. We all know that barring some technological leap that electricity is the way it's going to be, so implementing any and all solutions that move as much to electrical power as possible, is the way to go right now. Build those nukes, build those hydro dams, build those solar installations. Get 'em up. We can always decommission them later, and in the meantime we can lift the reprocessing ban and work on ALL ways of getting rid of the waste.
  25. velvetfoot

    velvetfoot Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,538
    Loc:
    Sand Lake, NY
    eggzackly!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page