Considering an insert--will it be too warm?

[katman]

I'm considering replacing my propane fireplace insert with either an Enviro M55 or Accentra. This will go in our large living space (approx 20 x 35 x 30 high main room with step up to open dining area and kitchen). The fireplace is on the side wall and we have a loft bedroom upstairs. I know it will be warm upstairs, but we have two slliders up there and usually leave one cracked open. My concern is that either stove, particularly the enviro, might radiate too much heat to sit in the room. When I first built the place I stuck a sierra woodstove on the heart and it did get warm near the stove when it was was really cranking. Will either of these pellets radiate a comparable level of intense heat or do they throw a less intense but steady air stream?

 

[Eatonpcat]

You can run it on a thermostat or turn it down if it gets too hot. Maybe I'm not understanding your question.

 

[katman]

I never had a pellet heater. I have a coal stoker in my barn, which replaced a massive soapstone wood stove and I had the woodstove in the fireplace for a while. My experience is when you had the stoves working hard enough to heat the space, you really couldn't sit very close to the stove--it just radiated too much heat. My coal stoker actually does a better job of heating the barn--it is slower, doesn't crank out the intense heat, but it generates a contiuous output. The fan blows warm, not intensely hot air. I'm thinking the pellet may be similar to the stoker and just want to try to confirm that.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Pellet stoves are forced hot air systems (sort of like your stoker) and do not go through the ups and downs of heat output like a wood stove.

You can frequently have a pellet stove as close as 1" from the venting to combustibles, the output convection air is hot right where it exits the stove, some stoves are hotter than others due to air flow capabilities in addition to firing rates.

All required clearances can be found in the stove's installation manuals and venting installation manuals.

 

[katman]

Thanks. Im looking forward to the insert and adding wood to my boiler system.

 

[BradH70]

I have an Enviro M55 Insert in my living room and this is also were we have our TV and spend most of our time (even when the TV is off). The living room is "open" to the hallway leading to our second floor and also to our kitchen. The heating space is about 1200 sq/ft per floor. We have not had any issues with the living room getting to hot. Even on the coldest days when the stove has to run at a higher output to keep the upstairs warm. The downstairs temps are kept around 68-70 and this keeps the upstairs in the 65-68 range.

I love the Enviro. I was able to compare it side by side with an Accentra, both units were operational. The Enviro puts out a lot of heat and is very quite compared to the Accentra. During the shoulder season, I just run the stove on manual mode and set it at either heat level 1 or 2 depending on the needs to warm the house. Once it really starts getting cold out, I run it in Hi/Low mode and use a programmable T-stat.

Go for the Enviro, you won't be disappointed, and it looks great too!

 

[katman]

That sounds real good. I'm tending toward the enviro. Only problem is my local dealer (sells both) has an outrageous high price on the Enviro--he must have a better margin on the Harmons. I can get it from a dealer I know on the other side of the bay for about $1200 less, but I'll have to work out transport and install. I can do both myself if I have to but really don't have the time. I'm booking some long hours and I would like to get this done soon so we don't burn much of our precious $3.99/gal propane! We spend a lot of time in the living area so I was concerned we might get roasted but it sounds like these heaters are more controllable than my old wood stove and our set up and usage are like yours. Should work out fine.

 

[BradH70]

Not sure what your dealer is asking for, but when I got mine, the going rate was around $4,000. I know it is a lot of money, but it will pay for itself rather quickly consider the cost of Oil and LG. I had the dealer deliver it but did the install myself. The dealers cost to install it was almost as much as 2 tons of pellets. The only issue with doing the install yourself is getting the unit in place. Even though all of the cast iron parts can be removed, it is still very heavy and requires at least two people to lift it. If you can get it yourself and have a fried to help, do the install yourself. You will learn a lot about the stove in the process as well.

 

[Cincinnati Kid]

Katman, I have a setup similar to yours with a large family room and loft. I selected the Harman and never looked back.

Obviously, its your choice but you can't go wrong with a Harman!

 

[katman]

I think they are both good stoves. Local dealer wants about $4000 for the harman and nearly $5000 for the Enviro. Plus install of about $1300. I can get the Enviro at a dealer elsewhere for $3700. He will thro in ton of pellets but I'm too far for him to install. He has a local guy he uses for warranty service and is checking to see if he will do the install. I've done a few installs so I know it's not difficult. Just don't have the time right now so I'm happy to pay a reasonable price. $1300 is a bit steep plus he wants another $300 to remove my gas insert and place it outside. He has too much work!

 

[BradH70]

Wow, local dealer does sound a bit pricey. I paid $4100 for stove, delivery and two tons of pellets (one ton being free with purchase of stove). The local dealer install price must be including delivery, all the SS venting and necessary supplies. I don't know what your install looks like, but it still sound over priced.

 

[pfmaloney]

I originally wanted an Enviro M55, but after learning that non-masonry fireplaces need to have an enclosure built for it,
I opted for the Accentra. The details for the enclosure are in the M55 insert’s installation manual.
This might be a factor in your situation.

 

[katman]

It's really a simple install. Raised hearth, masonry and straight shot up. Damper is already removed. It is a shame. The local guys bought the business from a friend of mine who really built it into a fine operation over the last 25 years. They push Harmons, which is why they priced the Enviro so high. They are delighted to just do a drop delivery and let buyers find their own installer, which is why they charge so much if you want them to do an install. Also, six week lead time if you want them to do it. Like I said, my friend built a good business. I hope the new owners do well, but I'll check elsewhere.

 

[Fish On]

doing your own install is so easy, i did mine and then repointed my whole chimney when i was up there putting my ss liner down the flue.

of course i used to be a chimney sweep, but its not rocket science and u will save a ton of money.

1300 for a install is crazy, u can buy a lot of pellets for that price.

 

[Eatonpcat]

My install sounds similar to yours, I paid $500.00, then an extra $400.00 for the Liner (Also overpriced IMO). Can't your friend that owned and sold the shop find someone to install it for you?? Good luck!!

 

[katman]

I just spoke to another Enviro dealer who wasn't real keen on the M55--was pushing the Empress or Milan(?). Even though the Enviro install manual says you can pull fresh air from your chimney (with suitable cap), he said the local rep recommends going out the back of the fireplace or all they way throught the top. Also, says because M55 is multifuel it is a bit noisier and less efficient. Nice guy with some interesting points. The fresh air issue really isn't a problem for me--I have a hole in the back of my fireplace now where the gas line comes in. Gas line has to come out so I would just have to enlarge the hole. He wants about $3700 for the Empress, delivered and installed. He's going to come by and I'll see what he wants to do the M55.

 

[Eatonpcat]

I just spoke to another Enviro dealer who wasn't real keen on the M55--was pushing the Empress or Milan(?). Even though the Enviro install manual says you can pull fresh air from your chimney (with suitable cap), he said the local rep recommends going out the back of the fireplace or all they way throught the top. Also, says because M55 is multifuel it is a bit noisier and less efficient. Nice guy with some interesting points. The fresh air issue really isn't a problem for me--I have a hole in the back of my fireplace now where the gas line comes in. Gas line has to come out so I would just have to enlarge the hole. He wants about $3700 for the Empress, delivered and installed. He's going to come by and I'll see what he wants to do the M55.

When I was looking, it seemed like the dealers were always trying to steer me toward a stove they had in stock. Not saying that is what he is doing, but that was my experience. Once again, good luck with your decision!

 

[BradH70]

" Also, says because M55 is multifuel it is a bit noisier and less efficient."

Compared to the Harman Accentra, the M55 was much, much quieter. The M55 uses a squirrel cage fan (maybe the Harman does as well) which tend to have a much lower dB output per CFM output. Efficiency is a little on the low side compared to other stoves, but it seems to be heating our house quite easily.

 

[pfmaloney]

" Also, says because M55 is multifuel it is a bit noisier and less efficient."

Compared to the Harman Accentra, the M55 was much, much quieter. The M55 uses a squirrel cage fan (maybe the Harman does as well) which tend to have a much lower dB output per CFM output. Efficiency is a little on the low side compared to other stoves, but it seems to be heating our house quite easily.

Is this comment based on the M55's new convection fan? Iv'e read posts that state that it is not as quiet as it used to be.

 

[BradH70]

This is the second season for the M55 Insert. I don't know which design my stove has for the convection fan and was not aware of any recent design changes. When I was researching stoves, I had the Accentra on the top of my list. I tried to visit as many shops as I could so as to be able to demo different manufacturers and models. The issues with the inserts was that not many stores have these installed and running. I finally found a store that had both the Accentra and M55 installed and operational, side by side. The Accentra was nice and seemed to push the air more forcefully, but it was much louder then the M55, at all heat levels. As well, the M55 claims a much higher BTU rating the Accentra and this was also a factor due to the size of the space we are heating.

I have no issues with the Accentra, they are great machines and get lots of praise. I just gravitated towards the M55 for various reasons after seeing them running side by side.

 

[pfmaloney]

I completely understand. I was just trying to clarify the noise comparison to help the OP make an informed decision.
From what I've read, the stronger fan is present on the recently built M55s.

 

[katman]

This is a really helpful discussion--thank you all. I'm getting a house call from the second dealer later today. BTW, I suspect at least part of the reason he isn't keen on the M55 is he doesn't have one in stock and doesn't think he can get one. I do wonder if I really need the output both the m55 and harman can deliver. Not as cold on average down here as it is for those of you in the snow belt. But, we do like to be warm!

 

[Casie]

Always go bigger than you think you need. Great advice from the veterans on this forum. I have an open concept house, 90 % on 1 floor, Quad 1200 insert (with a thermostat) is in living room which is 20 x 26 with a 16 ft. vaulted ceiling centrally located in the middle of the house. I have ceiling fans in every room of the house, which is 3100 sq. ft, 2700 sq ft on main floor. That Quad pushes out heat like you wouldn't believe. Bedroom and bath wing on one end of house, kitchen and guest room on other end. We do use a little oil, but the Quad has cut our oil consumption by about 70% which I can't be happier with... I like the kitchen and bedroom sides cooler for sleeping and when you cook, stove heats the kitchen anyway...

We have had the Quad going on 4th burning season and absolutely love it.

go BIGGER....

good luck!

 

[hossthehermit]

I'm considering replacing my propane fireplace insert with either an Enviro M55 or Accentra. This will go in our large living space (approx 20 x 35 x 30 high main room with step up to open dining area and kitchen). The fireplace is on the side wall and we have a loft bedroom upstairs. I know it will be warm upstairs, but we have two slliders up there and usually leave one cracked open. My concern is that either stove, particularly the enviro, might radiate too much heat to sit in the room. When I first built the place I stuck a sierra woodstove on the heart and it did get warm near the stove when it was was really cranking. Will either of these pellets radiate a comparable level of intense heat or do they throw a less intense but steady air stream?

Well, any time I had TWO sliders in the livin' room at my house, back in my single days, it did have a tendency to git waaaaaayyyy too hot. Your results may vary.

 

[katman]

Sales guy who came by yesterday was pretty good-just sells enviro products and gave me spreadsheets with references. I'm familiar with a couple of his customers so his installs must be pretty good. He made a couple of statements that I want to thro out. First, he said multifuel stoves are less efficient than pellet-only stoves so I would probably find I would use 2 bags a day with the Milan or Empress while I would burn 3 with the M55 cast insert. Also said multifuel stoves are noiser, and they tend to spill pellets--the tend to drop along the sides of the burner and fall unburnt into the ash. Not a lot of waste, but he said it is a problem you have with all multifuel stoves, regardless of brand. On my install, he said the M55 would require outside air so we would have to drill the chimney(not a problem for me cause I have to remove the gas pipe). For the Milan or Empress there would be sufficient air in the chimney cavity. I was figuring drawing outside air regardless of the stove I purchased. He had no reservations saying he is not to familiar with the m55--never installed one. Said there were some issues when they first hit the market. He has one now, which he is going to install later this week in his house to try out. His pricing is the best around here--the Milan installed would be $3200, the empress $3720. He didn't have the exact price on the M55 but said installed price would be about $4200. So, as much as I like a Harman product manufactured in Pa, any of the Enviro products would be at least $1000 less installed (after factoring in free pellets). So what do you all think about his comments regarding multifuel stoves and install?