Cut to the chase

[tcwest]

I just bought my first home in September. We have a fireplace that the seller swore they never really used. Not surprising, as they'd only been here three years, and even then only in summer.
I went up to check out the condition of the pipe and chase. The cap was never flashed or even weatherproofed, and had deteriorated to the point of collapse.
I tore it all down. The double insulated pipe now stands a little unsteady, but exposed. In the process of demolition, I noticed a pantload of materials being used. There was some standard sheetrock lining the walls of the chase to about four feet over the insert. Further up, some fiberglass-backed insulation.
The timing could be better, but I couldn't leave it in the condition I found it in, if I want to use the fireplace this winter. Mold and rot, termites and carpenter ants...I had it all.
I'd really like to get some good advice about the best way to rebuild that chase in terms of materials. Expert advice is not to be had. I'm too new here. There's a drunk guy next door who claims to be a retired master carpenter who wants in on the project, but he lost me after the first beer. Not on my roof!
I'd be really glad to post some pictures, if the admin doesn't mind. If not, it'd be great just to know what type of plywood and framing I ought to be using, and whether (no pun intended) or not I need to insulate the chase for a double insulated pipe.
I am pretty handy, but a novice with this particular application.
Can anybody help me get started on the rebuild?

 

[WILDSOURDOUGH]

TCWEST
I am sorry that I have no experenced in building or rebuilding a chimney chase- the only ones I have done were Brick and morter, and a Insulated Chimney (DuraVent) without a Chase.
At risk of offending your neighbor- I still don't think you should let him near a project at your house- Liabililty waiting to happen.
If you can see what was there- and you can duplicate it with newer materials, It has got to be better than what you have got now.
Best of Luck to You

(Now- somebody who has done one of these- lead this guy in the right direction )

 

[GVA]

Hey Wildsourdough That's not lempster mountain in your avatar is it...JK ;-P
tcwest
Elk maybe better to tell you what he is looking for and requiring as well as the code. I don't think drywall is in the equation though..

 

[jtp10181]

Is this all above the roof line? How does the chase continue down? Does it end at the attic and just go right into the attic space, or does it continue all the way down to the fireplace? I have different suggestions based on the answers.

 

[Gooserider]

Photos will be helpful, and are always welcome. You do need to shrink them down to about 640 x 480 or so, and choose an image quality that gives you about an 80-100K file - I find it's about 75% quality on a JPG. Upload using the "attachments" window at the bottom of the usual posting screen. Note that to do multiple pictures in the same message you need to hit "preview" after selecting each one. If you run out of space, use more than one post.

On the chase itself, I'm neither an expert builder, nor a code guru, but from what I've gathered, your first priority is to find the required clearance for your pipe - typically most Class A pipes require at least 2". Your entire chase structure must preserve this space. Construction shouldn't be that much different from a standard house wall - build it up w/ 2x stock, cover with exterior grade plywood and whatever you want for a surface treatment. Insulation is optional, but will help improve performance, especially in colder climates / weather.

Hopefully others will be able to chime in with more defintive advice, but pictures will help.

Gooserider

 

[tcwest]

Clicking on the pic should start a slideshow I made on Photobucket. There's also an album on that page for your perusal.
Please let me know if there is another view that is more helpful. I don't have more pics I can upload, but I can take the pics as needed.
Thanks! The "retired master carpenter" has been invited in for coffee, but not to work. My homeowners insurance would pay him for falling, then send somebody over to break my legs. It is Pennsylvania, after all.

 

[Gooserider]

First reaction - YYEEeechhh :exclaim: What a mess... :sick:

Now that that's over with... :lol:

I assume the steel box is the fireplace, correct? If so, what is the other stack that I see coming up next to it? Did that have a pipe on it also or was it just dumping into the chase? (if so you are lucky the house is still there!)

Looks like the chimney on that box is in pretty bad shape, might be worth replacing it (and maybe the box while you have so much exposed?) You probably don't need the added expense now, but it would probably cost less in total to do it right now and replace everything that might need it, rather than having to go back in again to do more repairs a couple years from now. If that other stack is used for anything then it should probably also be brought up to the top of the chase with an appropriate pipe, or else be sealed off in a really permanent way at the bottom entrance to keep anyone from trying to use it in the future.

Once you have the plumbing in the chase taken care of, then I would do as I suggested earlier, and build around the outside of it just like I was putting up a house wall, including a thorough insulation job - you need to bring the insulation of that part of the house up to the same (or better) standards as the rest of your walls or it will be just like having an open window the size of your chase on the side of the house. You could insulate the wall between the house and the pipes, but that would leave the pipes in the cold. You will get better draft performance to insulate the outside walls of the chase so that the heat leakage from the house will keep the stack pipes warmer - this will in effect give you an inside chimney instead of an outside chimney.

I am not sure what the rules are, but you may also need some fireblocking along the way to keep there from being an uninterrupted flame path through the chase between floors.

It looks like you also have some sort of vented chimney pipe on the fireplace box, you may need to look at what is required for keeping that properly ventilated.

Gooserider

 

[jtp10181]

As goose said, build the chase cavity as an exterior wall, sheeting, insulation, drywall or thermoply or something, caulk or tape the seams. Its tricky to do from the outside but it can be done. You will need a draft stop ( or fire-stop ) at every ceiling or every 10ft whichever comes first. The draft stop is basically a sheet of plywood filling the cavity and then you need a metal chimney fire-stop to keep clearances from the pipe. At the uppermost draft stop you insulate it like an attic space, and you also will want an insulation shield around the pipe to keep 2" clearances. The part of the chase that connects to the attic can either be fully insulated and separated from the attic, or left open and allowed to breathe with the attic space.

I would consult a fireplace pro locally, either a dealer or sweep. Maybe you don't need them to do the work, but give some guidance. It is hard to see all the variables with pictures on the Internet. Looks like I could spend half a day there just getting a feel for the situation and coming up with the best solution.

 

[JohnnyBravo]

what are you guys talking about? it all looks fine to me

if you are going to insulate the chase it has to be sheeted on the inside also. this is so that there is no chance of the insulation falling against the chimney. if i was going to build this i would start by making up small sections of wall. lets just say 2' wide for now. build 2@ 4' x 2' 8" and 2@ 8' x 2' i would sheet the one side (inside) then start putting them together to make a square. once they are together you will have a 2'8" x 2'8" chase that is four feet high on lets way north and south sides and 8' high on the east and west. now continue up in the same pateren with off set joints. this will kepp the final chase very rigid and easy to build for one or if your are lucky two guys. once the chase is up to hight then you can insulate and sheet the outside. when sheeting the out side i would try to off set the joints of the plywood opisite of what your walls were this will lock things up nicely.

the sizes i picked came out of thin air you should find ones that work for you. i counted on 2x4 framing with 1/2" sheeting on the inside. thats where the 8" came from.

 

[elkimmeg]

Whow what a piece of crap even the footing slab is junk. Who does work like that god it giver us inspectors job security when ous sees that crap That pipe is air cooled 1700 degree pipe and it too looks like crap What the other pipe I see in that picture?

Ok first of all what about a real slab footing? Can't use what is there I can't believe they just cut a hole there a wood roof anf installed the pipe no spacer shield no shingles or roofing in any sort. Who did that work Moe Larry and Curly. you know you do not even need a chase if you use class A outside. Anything would be an improvement over what you have now.

Sorry I fell you pain and anger at that workmanship I would never allow that in my town it would never pass inspection. Personally I would never do work like that

Lets discuss options do you even need a chase? and lets go from there

 

[tcwest]

Wow...thanks for all the responses. Let me try and get to some of the questions.
1.) The "other" pipe
Down in the basement, you can see where there must have been a woodstove at some point in the distant past. Although the house isn't that old (1977), it's pretty clear that the stove has been gone for quite some time. The exhaust and the ash bin are both sealed up behind sheetrock and five or six different coats of paint. There is a moderate/severe mold problem in that area, due to (I'm sure) the failure to seal up the chase cap and the old chimney. In the earlier pictures of the slideshow, you can see the 4' section of pipe that came from the vitrified clay liner. The pipe has been removed from the chimney in the later pictures only because it came down with the debris. I wasn't messing around.
2.) To the naked, untrained eye- the job still looks like crap. So, we're all agreed there. I've made that same comment myself (in other words, to be sure) many, many times since the start. I have no information on the builder. I see the 4" base is poured on stacked stones. Beneath that, who knows? I haven't torn the stucco'ed plywood that you see at ground level yet.
3.) I don't know if I need a chase or not, outside of aesthetics. If I don't build one, I'll have to stiffen that pipe up in some way. I'd also have to put something between the house and the pipe. The best news I could get here is that I can get through the winter without the rebuild. In the late spring, I'd start from scratch with the warmer weather and eventual longer days.
So, men...here it is. What's the next step for me? And, also...what is "Class A", that I'd use in lieu of my current setup?

 

[jtp10181]

What kind of fireplace do you have now? Is it an open front metal box? You might consider replacing it with a stove or EPA wood unit. With a stove you could pas through the old wall, and do a Tee, class A up past the roof line. No Chase.

Class A pipe is just a term for all-fuel venting commonly used for wood burning appliances. What you have now looks like a prefab air cooled chimney which is usually tested specific for a certain fireplace. Class A is more "universal".

 

[tcwest]

I don't see a "brand name" anywhere, but it would be impractical to replace it with a conventional woodstove.

 

[Gooserider]

Looks like a fairly generic "builder box special" Zero Clearance fireplace. Not terribly efficient, moderately polluting, not much of a heater. I could see not wanting to replace it with a wood stove, though it might be an option to tear out the FP and do an "alcove install". However what I'd be more inclined to do is consider replacing that box with a modern EPA-II approved High Efficiency fireplace - this would be a box looking about the same from the front, but that would be able to burn much more cleanly and put out more heat with less wood. You would probably need to tear out at least part of that brick facing, but a facing like that would not be hard to replace, and you could probably recycle most of the bricks, so it wouldn't cost that much...

The advantage to doing this before putting up the chase is to give you the best access, and let you end up with an installation that is clean burning and efficient as well as good looking.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

why would you have to tear out that brick facing it a surround panel . Take the panel off and remove the stove. ItS not embedded into the bricks
Then find one that fits in the existing opening

 

[tcwest]

Well, you know... I'm all about the environment, starting in about April. Until then, I need to contribute to greenhouse gasses for a while. It's okay. It's my turn.
What I need to do now is some short-term repairs. I'm hoping to get some advice on how to fix the existing pipe to get me safely through the winter. I'll save the upgrade for the warmer weather.
I can't even fathom tearing out any part of the fireplace for any reason at this late time, and I'm burning mostly box elder, oak, hophornbeam and sugar- all good and hot. I'll sacrifice some heat efficiency for now, but not safety. Can we start from there?

 

[jtp10181]

If you are going to try and use that thing to heat your house, don't even bother. You will be huddling right next to it trying to stay warm.

 

[JohnnyBravo]

does that fireplace have its own outside air intake? if not i would recomend trying to rig one up. not sure if the pipe is still usable, if it is i would scrap the chase for the season get the pipe in keep any combustables well away from it, glue all suspect joints, brace it well with some steel and get some good flashing for the roof that will keep any structure far away. keep an eye on it throughout the season checking for any changes. they make suport brakets for the chimney above the roof line, most require it after 5' of pipe above the roof line. even still im not sure how much heat you are going to get out of that thing. i would weigh the cost of other heat once again befor you start this project. sounds like you are going to do a lot of work for a temp setup only to re do it later.

 

[tcwest]

I know it sounds that way, Johnny...'cause that's how it is. I really have no reasonable way of starting fresh at this point in the year. I'm in the business of highway maintenance, and this here is our busy season. The best I can do is make it go for now.
I know it looks horrible. I know none of you guys would put the same unit in your own homes. I also know that none of you would bother with making the temporary repair. Believe me, I've felt every one of these responses.
Trust me when I tell you this. I don't go on the internet looking for help unless I'm really in trouble, okay?
We'd used the fireplace a dozen times before I went up on the roof, based on a quick flashlight up the pipe look that didn't give me the sheen of heavy creosote. I only went up there to get a bird's eye view. I found what I found, and did what I had to do.
Now what I have to do is make it so the wife can sit in her chair by the fireplace, while I go out and get the roads cleaned up.
How do I contain the foundation under the concrete pad? How do I stiffen up the joints?

 

[JohnnyBravo]

if the joints are loose maybe you can get a few screws in them. my friends family have a cabin sauna with the same sort of situation only things are not temperary. you say you have used it many times before, could you tell if there was any charring of the wood on the chase, or was it just rot? just think every step through carefuly. sometimes when you think you are making somethinng safer you end up creating a new hazard. someone decided to put a new roof on that sketchy sauna a few years ago the flasing traped the heat next to the old roof structure and the next time i went out there we were shouveling the old sauna into the back of my truck to go dispose of the ash.

 

[tcwest]

That's an excellent question, JohnnyB. Let's put it this way. When I first opened it up, I thought I saw some mild scorching. However, as I got further into the demolition, I started to think more along the lines of mildew. If it were really burned, it would be more destructive. I'd say we used it 10-12 times before I went up and looked, and I'm burning some all-nighters if I'm burning anything. The heat to do damage was definitely there...but nothing happened.
There was massive rot. In fact, new 2x4's had been nailed to rotted, termite/ant ridden ones...indicating, of course, that someone had already walked a mile in my shoes and decided halfway through to call for a ride.
I promise you, I won't do that. I will replace the whole deal, in phases, over the summer months. For now...
The loose joints are actually the second of two shields. Look closely at the pictures, and you'll see duct tape wrapped around the last section join before the cap. The tape is not melted or burned. Still, I'm not MacGuyver. I don't want to use tape.
Do they make a band clamp that big, like they use for exhaust pipes in automotive applications?
I have found a few old aluminum highway signs to use for shoring at the base. That should hold.
While you're looking at the pictures...what is that separation in the middle of the chimney? Shouldn't that have some sort of cap with an overhang on it?
What a flippin' disaster. I have to cobble this whole thing up. The neighbors are already slowing down to look at it. : )

So...you shoveled some hot ash from a sauna in the bed of your truck? What is this, "Penthouse Forum"? ROTFALMAO
"Dear Penthouse,
I always wondered if the letters in your forum were really true, until one day...."

 

[JohnnyBravo]

no some body burned down the sauna and left a pile of ash and charcoal. the neighbours were pissed off so we could not just burn it down the rest of the way. we had to move it to a big burn pit. the new sauna is awesome. nothing combusable within two feet of stove or chimney. we get some good fires goin in there, the term overfire doesn't begin to describe it. good call on the tape. if you need a big hose clamp you can join a bunch of them together. i got some ss ones for hydrolic lines. road signs are quite usefull and the price is useualy right. im going to look at the pics again.

 

[JohnnyBravo]

as near as i can tell the lower section of pipe is air cooled. it looks like the build up around the roof line was an after thought. i suspect that originaly the outer casing vented out right at the roof line. is there any sort of intake at the base of the chimney that would allow cool air in? i imagine that that pipe cost more and once they were out of the house/attic they switched over to cheaper pipe. as for caping it off i would leave it open and put a storm colar above it with lots of room for air flow. that whole setup looks like it could use a few tac welds, way easier the messing around with hose clamps and what not. also you may lose a bit of heat to the outside with that stove the way it is. now is a good time to jerry rig an outside air intake, that will limit the amount of air that the beast will draw from the house. you should go grab some sand and cement and mix up some mortor for those stones, just incase.

 

[tcwest]

as near as i can tell the lower section of pipe is air cooled. it looks like the build up around the roof line was an after thought. i suspect that originaly the outer casing vented out right at the roof line. is there any sort of intake at the base of the chimney that would allow cool air in? i imagine that that pipe cost more and once they were out of the house/attic they switched over to cheaper pipe. as for caping it off i would leave it open and put a storm colar above it with lots of room for air flow. that whole setup looks like it could use a few tac welds, way easier the messing around with hose clamps and what not. also you may lose a bit of heat to the outside with that stove the way it is. now is a good time to jerry rig an outside air intake, that will limit the amount of air that the beast will draw from the house. you should go grab some sand and cement and mix up some mortor for those stones, just incase.

There are two unused ports on the outside of the firebox, a much smaller diameter than the pipe. Could these be the intakes you're talking about?

 

[tcwest]

Got the whole side of the house to 3' on either side of the chimney sheathed in the aforementioned signs, and am in the process now of bending a final sheet of the aluminum to serve as a stabilizer to that disaster under the box. I have also secured the stack to the aluminum with some hanger iron and self-tapping screws.
Lord,it's butt-ugly...but fireproof! Righty in the middle of the work, we had five inches dumped on us. The neighbors got a laugh, I'm sure, watching me scurry up and down the ladder, ttrying to do some last minute weatherproofing.
I found a wall switch sorta/kinda hidden (I say this to try and hide my embarrassment at not previously noting said switch, but figured you'd all see right through it) that powers a fan, which is forcing heated air out into the house. There's a long and narrow grill directly over the front of the glass doors, and apparently...there's a fan in there somewhere. This explains the wire laying on top of the firebox outside.
I have a lot to learn here about these things.
Also, I started looking into a replacement for the spring, as promised. I went to an aptly named "The Fireplace Store". The guy was kind of dicky. Didn't want to help me with the repairs I need to make now. He went on a speech about how many different kinds of pipe were out there. When I told him I had two sections of it in the bed of my truck in his parking lot for him to use as a reference, he got cute and said, "Does it have a sticker on it?"
(Even I know that no sticker would still be on a ten year old and well used stove pipe. He couldn't be bothered to come out and look, or to have me bring it inside.)
I realize his job is to sell new units, but he lost my business in forty-five seconds by not being willing to get me from here to warm weather.
Word to the wise. Customers are still customers, even if you don't have any immediate competition. This one is going to Lowes.
Incidentally, Johnny...the higher portion of the roof is new, and the old roof remains underneath. The purpose was to install skylights in the kitchen. They simply added a roof. This would explain the "afterthought" extension. You're right on the money. You sure do get a lot more from the pictures than I ever would.