DIY installation of insert "qualified installer"

[kitand]

I'm handy, and I've researched inserts and liners quite a bit in the past couple months.
I can also read and follow instructions well.
I've been planning to install an insert and get it permitted for insurance reasons.
I messaged my local permits office (Seattle) and got this response:

"...Manufacturer's require their products be installed by "qualified" installers. "Qualified" usually means the personnel who sell the product and/or a licensed contractor. If you are a do-it-yourselfer, unless you can somehow prove you are "qualified", and back it up if something goes wrong, again, you will have no recourse."

So basically they're saying they'd likely permit my DIY work, but that I might have insurance snafus if a problem ever occurs.

I'm a bit confused. If the inspector comes and permits the work I've done, isn't that supposed to be the proof that the work is OK for insurance reasons? (From complaints I've read concerning problems with some professional installs, I'd say I'd very likely do a better-than-average job myself, probably even a superior one).

Some retailers (ex: northlineexpress) even openly acknowledge/encourage DIYers for their inserts, but still in their manuals it stipulates "qualified installer".

Any perspective on how insurance really works with inserts? Will insurance companies refuse coverage for DIY work, even if it's permitted?

 

[bholler]

So basically they're saying they'd likely permit my DIY work, but that I might have insurance snafus if a problem ever occurs.

Yes it is possible

I'm a bit confused. If the inspector comes and permits the work I've done, isn't that supposed to be the proof that the work is OK for insurance reasons?

The problem is that your insurance company wants to make sure someone can be held liable for any problems and inspectors cannot be

From complaints I've read concerning problems with some professional installs, I'd say I'd very likely do a better-than-average job myself, probably even a superior one).

The problem is all you hear are the complaints. There are allot of very good pros out there that do good installs all the time. But you only hear about the bad ones.

Some retailers (ex: northlineexpress) even openly acknowledge/encourage DIYers for their inserts, but still in their manuals it stipulates "qualified installer".

Again it comes down to liability they want the diy market but are not willing to take on any liability for it so they put in the qualified installer clause.


I am by no means saying you cannot or should not do it yourself but many insurance companies want someone to take the liability if you install it that is you

 

[kitand]

Well explained, bholler. So if I want to continue with DIY idea AND have coverage it seems I might have to 1) find an insurance co. (hopefully my current one) that allows installations by permit (i.e. not requiring a professional installer) and (2) prove that I'm a "qualified installer" by documenting my every step of to-the-spec installation.

 

[begreen]

Manufacturer's require their products be installed by "qualified" installers.

Sounds more like a CYA for warranty issues. There are many exceptions to this statement depending on the manufacturer. If you are concerned about this then select products that don't have this caveat.

 

[bholler]

1) find an insurance co. (hopefully my current one) that allows installations by permit (i.e. not requiring a professional installer) and (2) prove that I'm a "qualified installer" by documenting my every step of to-the-spec installation.

There are many companies that are fine with diy installs but documenting everything is not a bad idea regardless because if it comes time for them to pay a claim they may change their tune.

 

[electrathon]

If it is your house and you do the work to code there is nothing they can do about it. They may not want you to, but the code says you have the right to work on your own house.

What if you bought your house 3 years ago. Ten years ago the homeowner installed a furnace. Is there going to be any prof that the furnace was installed by a qualified person? No, and they wont be asking for it either.

I have seen a friends insurance company insist a listened electrician do work. They paid someone to come in and do it. There was never a mention about who did the work after the fact. They could have just done it themselves. Even worse, the work was not proper and I ended up going over and correcting it for them.

 

[kitand]

Thanks for perspectives. The first installation manual I looked at did have the caveat "qualified installer". So I was thinking my city official was correct, but then your posts inspired me to check another two manuals, both of which do NOT stipulate "qualified installer". Electrathon--I've had the same sort of experiences myself, which is why I like to DIY, especially something as easy as a chimney liner install on my straight chimney and low-slope roof!

 

[bholler]

If it is your house and you do the work to code there is nothing they can do about it. They may not want you to, but the code says you have the right to work on your own house.

Your insurance company can drop you or refuse a claim if you don't follow their rules. And municipalities can require licensed pros for certain things.

I have seen a friends insurance company insist a listened electrician do work. They paid someone to come in and do it. There was never a mention about who did the work after the fact. They could have just done it themselves. Even worse, the work was not proper and I ended up going over and correcting it for them.

If you think they would not check in the event of a claim you are sorely mistaken. They have all of those rules to cover their asses and many will stick the liability on you if you don't follow their rules.

What if you bought your house 3 years ago. Ten years ago the homeowner installed a furnace. Is there going to be any prof that the furnace was installed by a qualified person? No, and they wont be asking for it either.

They can look at the manufacture date and see it pretty easily. And as a pro I am required to date my installs so there is another indicator. No they will not ask unless there is an issue. If there is they will be asking


Basically I am saying cover your ass everyone else is as well. If your insurance company is not ok with it either find a company who is or hire a pro. I have done some consultation work for insurance companies and believe me if they want to they will find a reason to pass off the liability so don't give them and reason to want to do it.

 

[bholler]

I like to DIY, especially something as easy as a chimney liner install on my straight chimney and low-slope roof!

And many times they are pretty easy yours sounds like it may be an easy one. But many are not. I am not telling you not to diy at all just be aware of the liability issues and cover your butt.

 

[redyute]

I did my own installation, I just had to have it inspected by a professional and submit the certificate to the insurance company, cost me $80.00

 

[kitand]

bholler--I totally hear what you're saying in terms of insurance companies, and VERY much appreciate your advice. Still, I sympathize with electrathon's sentiment: If I were no longer on mortgage and had plenty of backup dough, I'd just kiss the insurance companies goodbye and take care to lead a safe life.
Redyute, great idea! And if I waited till early summer, I bet the professionals might be available for a pretty cheap price, too! But that's another topic...

 

[electrathon]

I work in a small town. A few years ago the building inspector was requiring electrical permits to do electrical work. They were also refusing to issue permits to homeowners. Totally illegal, but still required. They finally did this to someone who had legal background who stirred the pot on them. We were slapped by the state (were told to follow the law, not the whims of the building official) and got a nice write up in the local paper about it.

At a different time a coworker had his furnace fail. For some reason his wife told their insurance company. They told him the lie that he was not allowed to work on his own house. It took a threat of a lawsuit for them to admit that there was no law, policy or anything more than the decision of the person on the phone. He installed it, had it inspected and still has the same insurance. It was just a hollow lie from the insurance company.

My point is to not accept what they are telling you. Make them put it in writing. Then ask them to show you where their company policy says that and why their policy is in conflict with state law. They will usually change what they are saying.

 

[bholler]

I work in a small town. A few years ago the building inspector was requiring electrical permits to do electrical work. They were also refusing to issue permits to homeowners. Totally illegal, but still required. They finally did this to someone who had legal background who stirred the pot on them. We were slapped by the state (were told to follow the law, not the whims of the building official) and got a nice write up in the local paper about it.

Yes that may very well be true but it is perfectly legal in some areas to require licenses for certain work. Do you know that laws in Seattle? I don't.

At a different time a coworker had his furnace fail. For some reason his wife told their insurance company. They told him the lie that he was not allowed to work on his own house. It took a threat of a lawsuit for them to admit that there was no law, policy or anything more than the decision of the person on the phone. He installed it, had it inspected and still has the same insurance. It was just a hollow lie from the insurance company.

Yes but has he made a claim regarding that furnace or anything damaged by it? Does he know and fully understand all of the clauses pertaining to that furnace?

My point is to not accept what they are telling you. Make them put it in writing. Then ask them to show you where their company policy says that and why their policy is in conflict with state law. They will usually change what they are saying.

Again all states are different what you say may be true in your state but it is not in all states. In pa insurance companies can require just about what ever they want on a property they are insuring if you dont like it find another insurance company.

 

[begreen]

csia training places liability very high yet all insurance companies are not created equal. Some have very aggressive underwriters and will argue themselves out of almost anything. Others are much more understanding. FWIW, the Seattle caveat appears to not be point toward insurance but rather warranty considerations.

 

[bholler]

csia training places liability very high yet all insurance companies are not created equal. Some have very aggressive underwriters and will argue themselves out of almost anything. Others are much more understanding.

Oh absolutely and I said that some are very easy to deal with and pay claims pretty easily others are extremely difficult. And state law varies greatly on what they can and cant do. And it is not only csia training and business training you get is going to tell you to cya every time. But honestly it was the times I did some consulting work for insurance companies that really showed me how they work.

 

[kennyp2339]

This is why I hate insurance companies, if you can follow the manufactures instructions (which is what gives the product the ansi certification) and have it backed up with an official inspection (from a government entity = professional inspection) everything should be fine and no insurance company should have any say.
This is a classic example of what people mean when they say corporate American is fundamentally eroding freedoms of citizens.
* I got to add one more thing to this while on my angry insurance company soap box, if your insurance company is that picky from the start, I would start looking for a new one because its clearly evident that if you ever have a claim whether its woodstove related or not, they will try to find ways of not paying the claim, or not paying it in full, don't believe me? ask the people along the NJ shore and up to 70 miles inland after hurricane Sandy, non flooding related claims.

 

[redyute]

This is why I hate insurance companies, if you can follow the manufactures instructions (which is what gives the product the ansi certification) and have it backed up with an official inspection (from a government entity = professional inspection) everything should be fine and no insurance company should have any say.
This is a classic example of what people mean when they say corporate American is fundamentally eroding freedoms of citizens.

That's all I was told to do by farmers insurance and I was good

 

[edthesweep]

I did my own installation, I just had to have it inspected by a professional and submit the certificate to the insurance company, cost me $80.00

I dont see why that wouldnt work for the op - it would have too

 

[bholler]

I dont see why that wouldnt work for the op - it would have too

I just dont see why any sweep would do a full level 2 inspection and then take the liability of the install for $80.

 

[edthesweep]

I just dont see why any sweep would do a full level 2 inspection and then take the liability of the install for $80.

I doubt he did full level 2 (and not sure "full level2" needed for insulated liner insert install. However I thought that price was low too - I'd want double that

 

[bholler]

I doubt he did full level 2 (and not sure "full level2" needed for insulated liner insert install.

Well he would need to do atleast a level 2 to confirm that it was installed correctly.

 

[edthesweep]

Well he would need to do atleast a level 2 to confirm that it was installed correctly.

I just meant I do not see need for camera inspection of liner - but all other aspects of level 2 - YES
Still don't think he did based on the receipt though....

 

[BrotherBart]

When I installed my insert and called the insurance company she said "We are already insuring that fireplace in the house. Nothing else needed."

Call your insurance agent tomorrow and ask them what they require. Betting the sign off on the permit will get it done.

I am reminded of the guy that did his own basement finishing. The inspector came out and looked it over and said "So you did it yourself." The guy froze and said "Uh, yes. What mistakes did I make?" The inspector replied "You didn't make any mistakes. Because you don't know how to cover them up.".

 

[redyute]

My installation is basic, it's a small insert compared to the size of the fireplace making it easy to see the connections and liner very easy with the surround off. Clearance to combustibles complied with. He liked the quality of the liner I used and only talked about the black elbow I had on which you guys already told me about but I figured imma just replace it after this season

 

[rwhite]

I'm curious if anyone knows if a self installer has ever been successful in getting paid for a claim. I have done both of my installs and the insurance companies (farm bureau and mutual of enumclaw) had bought off on both. The first was an insert and farmers said they already considered the hazards of an open fireplace so they were ok with an insert and my rates didn't change. The last one was a New install and my rates went up $75/year mostly because I'm in a #10 risk zone. Both companies were happy with well documented photos ( to include photos of a tape measure to show clearances) and brochures of all products installed. But then again I have never filed a claim and would almost be sure that if I had to there would be a fuss about a self install.