Draft issue- part deux

[remkel]

Well,

Pulled the pipe off the stove today to find a horrible sight. Had the oozing creosote coming down the chimney and quite a lot of buildup. Took photos, but am a bit embarassed to post them here. Still think there is a blockage at the top of the chimney, but I DO NOT go on my roof so I am calling in the professionals. Even after a couple of passes with the sooteater, I am not comfortable with how clean the chimney came and with the oozing stuff would rather a professional come in and do the cleaning.

Did take the opportunity to clean out the entire stove. Even discovered a new way to clean the bottom baffles at the reburn chamber- used an old paint brush to pull the ash out.

We will see what the final determination is and go from there.

Dang Nabbit!

 

[shawneyboy]

Post the pics, no need to be embarassed. It will help others. Besides "it didn't happen if there isn't any pics." Post em.....awww come onnnnn.....

 

[remkel]

Post the pics, no need to be embarassed. It will help others. Besides "it didn't happen if there isn't any pics." Post em.....awww come onnnnn.....

I'll try to get them off the phone and onto here....I hate to see a grown man whine.....

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Part of the learning process when it comes to burning wood. We see it all the time. Folks say their wood is really seasoned. If so, why the creosote? Get it cleaned and then get next year's wood on hand as soon as possible. Better yet, get 2 years ahead.

 

[Battenkiller]

I hate to see a grown man whine.....

Or a 58 year-old kid, either.

Really, there is no use for pride here. We all need to open the closet and let everybody see the skeletons if we truly want to help others. I'd definitely have shown all the creosote that came out of my "clean" burner last spring if the sweep didn't whisk it away before I had a chance. He got close to 2 gallons out of mine, how bad could yours be?

 

[Battenkiller]

Folks say their wood is really seasoned. If so, why the creosote?

Well, Dennis, I know for a fact that my wood is drier than dirt, way drier than the stuff you're burning (which is, at best, 16% MC in your area). In fact, my wood will pick up moisture after I put it back outside in the spring. I burn as hot as I can almost all the time, plenty of air, and I still get creosote buildup. There must be more to it than simply burning dry wood, eh?

 

[remkel]

I hate to see a grown man whine.....

Or a 58 year-old kid, either.

Really, there is no use for pride here. We all need to open the closet and let everybody see the skeletons if we truly want to help others. I'd definitely have shown all the creosote that came out of my "clean" burner last spring if the sweep didn't whisk it away before I had a chance. He got close to 2 gallons out of mine, how bad could yours be?

How bad could it be? I took about a half gallon out today- that was after one week! Definitely a blockage somewhere that did not allow a draft. The smoke just stayed in the flue and cooled- has to be what happened.

 

[remkel]

Tried posting the pictures but they are too large for this forum. Still have not figured out the whole size reduction thing.

I am all for posting the photos. I was only partially joking when I said I was embarassed.

 

[begreen]

There is more to keeping a flue clean than dry wood. Flue temps are important too. If the flue gas is leaving the stove at 300F and heading into a cold chimney, it is going to condense, especially if there is a lot of unburnt gas heading out the flue. I would try running the stove a bit hotter to maintain a warmer flue pipe. Double-wall pipe connector pipe will also help maintain hotter flue gases.

 

[remkel]

BeGreen,

I have tried just about everything I can think of and I think it comes down to one thing- my chimney.

I live in a relatively new neighborhood (developed 5 years ago) and a neighbor had a chimney fire last year. As I mentioned in other posts, I have an offset in my chimney. What my neighbor learned is that in this section of the chimneys, the mason encased the offset in concrete without any room for expansion. The concrete never really warms and causes the flue gasses to significantly cool in this part of the chimney. Once the creosote starts forming there it restricts the draft which exacerbates the problem.

His solution was to remove all the clay liner and install insulated ss pipe. I am considering buying a new stove with a 6" exhaust and installing an insulated ss pipe in the existing chimney. This seems like it would be easier than tearing out all the existing liner. Also may help me to find a more efficient stove, but the question would be, what is a comparable stove nowadays to the old Vigilant.

 

[begreen]

That sounds like an excellent first step. Getting rid of the refrigeration jacket on the flue should really help. I would run a year on that and meditate on the replacement stove. If radiant heat is a necessity, then I would look at the Quad Isle Royale, Jotul F600 or a basic Englander 30NC without side heat shielding.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Folks say their wood is really seasoned. If so, why the creosote?

Well, Dennis, I know for a fact that my wood is drier than dirt, way drier than the stuff you're burning (which is, at best, 16% MC in your area). In fact, my wood will pick up moisture after I put it back outside in the spring. I burn as hot as I can almost all the time, plenty of air, and I still get creosote buildup. There must be more to it than simply burning dry wood, eh?

both of you are right in a different way ,

creosote forms when the temperature in the stack drops below 212 degrees (the point where water changes from vapor to liquid) dry wood, well seasoned wood helps this as first off less moisture is present , moisture causes cooler fires as the thermal energy that would with dry wood go to heating the house is used up in evaporating moisture from the wood itself. this leaves less temp in the flue.

now OTOH water is a byproduct of the consumption of wood in a fire, so with a stack temp that doesnt maintain enough heat you can build creosote even with fully seasoned "dry" wood.

to prevent building creosote think of the reason it forms then look for these possibilities as a cause
1. wet wood:, nuff said
2. large cross section in flue: , cross section is the literal size of the chimney remember heat cannot be destroyed , only dispersed or dissipated, the larger the flue , the larger the surface area (or cross section) the larger the surface area the more rapid the dissipation. NFPA standard calls for no more than 2X the flue cross section than the flue collar.
3. air leak in flue or connector pipe: air leaks suck in, they dont blow out , remember the air entering a leak in a flue system is colder than the exhaust of the stove so this would cool the flue, clean out doors on brick chimneys are a prime candidate, gasket them!
4. reburn stoves and premature banking: reburn stoves (modern epa units) have to reach a certain temperature befor the reburning effect happens, many have dampers and such to close when temp is reached, if the temp isnt there yet the reburn can "stall" causing low temps from a stove which by nature is restrictive to draft.


hope this helps

 

[remkel]

That sounds like an excellent first step. Getting rid of the refrigeration jacket on the flue should really help. I would run a year on that and meditate on the replacement stove. If radiant heat is a necessity, then I would look at the Quad Isle Royale, Jotul F600 or a basic Englander 30NC without side heat shielding.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[PapaDave]

Thanks Mike.
Remkel don't feel too bad, at least you got the flue opened up and looked.
I really wish I'd taken pics of my flue and cap the first year. I didn't know any better, and wondered why the stove wouldn't draw well.
Got up top and pulled the cap. Cap was partially clogged, and the 8" flue was down to about 1/2 that. All of it was the fluffy stuff, so I'm thinking they (previous owners) just didn't clean it for about a bazillion years.
They must have had to burn really hot to get it to run. Can we all say OVERFIRE?!