E-mail to VC about Everburn opperations

[mikeathens]

How did you figure that? You have single-wall steel pipe with a surface temp of 700*F. How does that translate magically to 1400*F? I'd buy 750*F maybe.

I'm not going to question your experience...but I bought a flue gas probe thermometer last week. To suggest that something "magical" is occuring is a bit much. I'm not really into wicca or other witchcraft (Lord of the Rings was a good trilogy, though). I'm an engineer, and I rely on science (i.e. thermodynamics, physics) along with my own observations and experiences to solve problems like this. I have not researched it enough yet, but I would imagine that there is a velocity gradient in the flue pipe, with a laminar flow condition on the inner walls of the pipe, much like you would find in a water pipe flowing full. Again, I need to do more research, but this could possibly result in lower temperatures on the surface. Add to this air flow around the outside of the pipe, and it would make sense that the surface of the pipe would be considerably lower than temperatures in the middle of the pipe. Approximately half, based on my observations. I wouldn't call that magic at all. I have both the new probe thermometer and the magnetic thermometer next to each other on the flue pipe. The probe reads approximately double the surface thermometer (the scales on each are adjusted accordingly with color codes). Try it. It's a cool little experiment to amaze your friends and customers with.

By the way...I got rid of the Dutchwest and replaced it with a Hearthstone Heritage this past weekend. From the beginning, the Hearthstone with the burn tubes is easier to operate, takes less messing around, and gives consistent results. Considering all of the thick, brown emissions from the Dutchwest, it is my opinion that the burn tubes give an overalll more efficient burn with less emissions, regardless of manufacturer claims. The dutchwest non-cat has be be operated PERFECTLY each and every time to achieve smoke-free, efficient operation - impossible to do under real-world conditions. The hearthstone is smoke free within 20 minutes, sometime 5 minutes, after each reload on a consistent basis.

 

[propguy]

Very interesting thread.
I have a Defiant NC NEW IN FALL 06
Recently I have had trouble with back puffing, I cleaned the entire stove,and chimney.
It seems that when I engage the everburn the stove almost shuts down.
I typically engage it around 600-650 some times I can hear the rumble sometimes I cant.

Cou;d the secondary air be plugged from the inside of the stove??

 

[mikeathens]

It sounds like a problem similar to what I was having...one of the problems, anyhow. I'd have temps in the 550+ F range with the damper open, nice bed of coals, just what you'd expect prior to closing the damper. And then close it, it would rumble for 10 seconds or so, and the pipe temp would plummet. This is even with good flames and firebox temp continuing. The smoke would POUR from the chimney. Never had backpuffing, though.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Same as Mike.....occasionally (OK, often) my everburn stalls after a few minutes, but I havent had much of a backpuffing problem.

Sometimes I forget to open the bypass before opening the side loader to put in new splits, and I get some backpuffing, but that's my own dumb mistake. ;-)

 

[propguy]

It sounds like a problem similar to what I was having...one of the problems, anyhow. I'd have temps in the 550+ F range with the damper open, nice bed of coals, just what you'd expect prior to closing the damper. And then close it, it would rumble for 10 seconds or so, and the pipe temp would plummet. This is even with good flames and firebox temp continuing. The smoke would POUR from the chimney. Never had backpuffing, though.

Yea I just brought the stove up to 650 and engaged the afterburn it rumbbled for a minute and then stopped. I can't really hear the rummble anymore. hmmmmmm

I do hope someone from VC gets on here ................

 

[seaken]

How did you figure that? You have single-wall steel pipe with a surface temp of 700*F. How does that translate magically to 1400*F? I'd buy 750*F maybe.

I'm not going to question your experience...but I bought a flue gas probe thermometer last week. To suggest that something "magical" is occuring is a bit much. I'm not really into wicca or other witchcraft (Lord of the Rings was a good trilogy, though). I'm an engineer, and I rely on science (i.e. thermodynamics, physics) along with my own observations and experiences to solve problems like this. I have not researched it enough yet, but I would imagine that there is a velocity gradient in the flue pipe, with a laminar flow condition on the inner walls of the pipe, much like you would find in a water pipe flowing full. Again, I need to do more research, but this could possibly result in lower temperatures on the surface. Add to this air flow around the outside of the pipe, and it would make sense that the surface of the pipe would be considerably lower than temperatures in the middle of the pipe. Approximately half, based on my observations. I wouldn't call that magic at all. I have both the new probe thermometer and the magnetic thermometer next to each other on the flue pipe. The probe reads approximately double the surface thermometer (the scales on each are adjusted accordingly with color codes). Try it. It's a cool little experiment to amaze your friends and customers with.

By the way...I got rid of the Dutchwest and replaced it with a Hearthstone Heritage this past weekend. From the beginning, the Hearthstone with the burn tubes is easier to operate, takes less messing around, and gives consistent results. Considering all of the thick, brown emissions from the Dutchwest, it is my opinion that the burn tubes give an overalll more efficient burn with less emissions, regardless of manufacturer claims. The dutchwest non-cat has be be operated PERFECTLY each and every time to achieve smoke-free, efficient operation - impossible to do under real-world conditions. The hearthstone is smoke free within 20 minutes, sometime 5 minutes, after each reload on a consistent basis.

I apologize. That was a little flippant. I must have been in a prickly mood.

At any rate, surface temperature is usually what we guide by and it is not an exact science. It just gives us a "feel" for what is going on when troubleshooting. Having burned woodstoves for over thirty years in our business we tend not to get too alarmed when someone says "700 degrees" or "800 degrees". That's not enough to go on and it usually is a temporary condition that can be managed. Like I said, the learning curve usually takes care of what is initially thought to be a defect. Sometimes there is a defect. But not usually.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Sean,
I'm curious.... have you sold any DW non-cats and had customers come back to you with reburner problems? It just seems that no one on this forum is having an easy time with the new DW models in question, and wondering if that was your experience as well.

I still love my DW, just wish it was a little more 'fire & forget'.

 

[mikeathens]

you know, B.I.L, I have noticed in my lifetime that a majority of people don't put the time into things like this that we all are with these stoves. In fact, I would speculate that the majority of people that have purchased the everburn models are, for the most part, having the same problems as us (I could be wrong, but let's just say they are for the sake of this point). They either just don't know it, or don't care. I suspect that many (most) people see nice flames in their firebox, feel heat coming off the stove, and don't even pay attention to temperatures on the flue or stove. I know some individuals that I work with who don't even have a thermometer on their stove or flue! So, with that said, the majority of people probably don't get on this page, search on the internet, or call the dealer or other tech support for solutions to problems they don't even know they have!

Me on the other hand...I buy a stove with low emissions claims, see smoke pouring out the chimney, and realize that it is not even close to 1.6 gr.hr (and then have an installer try to tell me that I'm still getting 1.6 gr/hr even with heavy smoke emissions!) I also realize that the thick smoke equates to much lower efficiency. Pollution is a major concern to me, as is getting the most out of the money and time I spend collecting and splitting wood.

For many, the stove is more of a novelty or something to fire up for dinner parties (again, the majority of people I work with). So....I would speculate that most people don't contact the dealer about this stuff.

 

[webbie]

There are so many variables affecting stack temp....give the same stove, I would say that chimney strength and wood type would be two biggies. Certain woods have more combustible gases as opposed to fixed carbon (coals). More gases=more flame= more flame up the chimney if the chimney is pulling hard.

I'm not familiar with VC's new stuff or everburn, etc. but I have heard this from some stove engineers that I respect - designing for the lowest possible EPA tests and associated bragging rights can be dangerous. In a perfect world with perfect chimneys, operators and wood this might have advantages. But given the "real world", it is important to design for "slop" in all of these conditions....and who cares what the EPA tested efficiency is? Well, who should care is more like it!

Balance is the word. There is nothing wrong with finicky stoves as long as they are sold and the customers educated that way. Back to the usual car comparison - a Mercedes or even a rolls will be in the shop more often and require more care, better gas, etc.

In terms of solutions, I think in the cases of overdraft (high stack temps), a barometric draft regulator may help greatly. The high stack temp is a good sign in some ways - it means the stove is correctly burning all the fuel....BUT, we want to keep more of the heat transfer down where it belongs. This is a tough thing to do - that is why Russian fireplaces have all those chambers and long flue passages.

A stove that shuts down when put into everburn mode usually suffers from low draft, or possibly wet wood, operator error .....yes, and possible clogged ports but I would think VC designed around that.

I used a Resolute Acclaim for many years with similar technology. That stove had some of the hottest radiation to the top and the rear of any stove I have ever used- again, due to the fact that it was burning the gases so well in the rear chamber and the heat from this reaction is transfered through the iron.

A barometric helps greatly in the cases of "heat feeding upon itself" - meaning the stack gets hotter=the chimney drafts better=the wood burns faster and hotter.

Modern chimney are tested to:
1000 degrees continuous
1400 degrees for one hour
and ten minute bursts up to 2100 degrees

Remember that is in the chimney itself. It might be educational to place the probe thermometer up as close to the chimney connection (ceiling) as possible and see what happens there. I suspect the temp will be much lower.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Very good point..... my wood burning friends/family are all "stack watchers". I'm constantly tweaking how I operate/load the stove and checking the stack emissions to determine how well/cleanly it's burning.

Like you say, probably a lot of stove owners like the big roaring flames to view in the viewing window, even though that usually implies a sooty, inefficient burn.

 

[mikeathens]

I forgot to mention that if you have ever used a catalytic model (my experiences were with a DW catalytic), you would see why I was so frustrated with the non-cat model. The catalytics are easy to get up to temp, close the damper, and then you can watch the catalyst probe climb to 1200 F or so...all while maintaining a flue surface temp of 200F with ZERO smoke from the chimney. I am wondering why VC chose to even go to a non-cat at this time. I'll say it agin...too bad the X-Large DW catalytic doesn't use a 6" flue. THAT would have been my replcement choice for the DW non-cat large. Of course, that's the stove I would have bought in the first place, so I wouldn't have even dealt with the non-cat model. Maybe if VC is actullay looking at these pages and gives a rat's a**, they could work on developing the x-large DW to use a 6" flue. It's too bad they don't seem to care...

 

[BurningIsLove]

Thanks, Craig....

I know for certain I am using dry, well seasoned wood since I cut/buck/split my own supply. Like we have said in the threads, its not that the Everburn system doesn't work, it's just that it is so high maintenance and unpredictable compared to other non-cats that we have used. I think the fact that most of us have used other non-cats (and catalytics) successfully mostly rules out operator error. In other VC stoves I've used, when the stove starts to get too hot, one simply turns down the air inlet and the stove responds. A friend has an older VC catalytic and we share the same wood source, and using his stove is moronically simple to establish/maintain a clean, efficient burn. The same applies to my dad's Russo catalytic. With the dutchwest, the air inlet level might as well not exist once the bypass is closed....the stove will do what it wants regardless of how it's loaded, orientation of splits, depth of coal bed, and other factors affecting operation.

As for your info on stack temps, I prefer a high stack temp since I have a masonry chimney that runs up the common wall between the house & garage/shop. A warm stack is highly beneficial to heating that section of the house which is otherwise unheated. Outdoor conditions obviously play a role in draft conditions. But again, the DW has an extremely narrow range of atmospheric conditions in which it runs easily & well compared to other stoves I use. My stove has been burning continuously for a few days, and the surface stack temp is about 110F in the garage directly opposite the stove. I wish I had a probe thermometer. I know this is a horrendous oversimplification, but is there a rough conversion for interior temp based on external temp? The details of my chimney including pics are posted on the below thread.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4222/P15/

Mike, Im confused about your 6" flue connector comments. My large DW came w/ a 6" connector, was yours an 8" connector?

 

[mikeathens]

No...the largest catalytic Dutchwest uses an 8" flue. The largest non-catalytic uses a 6". I already had a 6" flue, and I didn't want to/have the money to replace the chimney when I got a new stove. So that ruled out the largest DW CAT model.

 

[webbie]

Yeah, burning, I understand your point.

Maybe the industry move to non-cats was too strong...cats have certain advantages for full-time burners. I have always heard that the cat Encore was a very user-friendly stove - in fact, it often got the opposite response at you....people who used to have other stoves complained that it did not burn hot enough - but the truth was that it was a very even and constant heat instead of a roaring fire.

You should get a probe thermometer - they are not too expensive. The surface does not tell you much for a number of reasons....

Is that stack located in the garage/shop or in the living area. If in the garage, it is definitely cold...and having a stack like this can make your stove that much more hard to operate. Who was it in this thread that had the straight up insulated one? That was the one I was talking about that might need a probe up near the ceiling.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Oh, my bad for not noticing that. You're right, that's not a great emphasis on customer satisfaction to make require a major change like that.

 

[mikeathens]

Not their fault...that stove was around long before the non-cat model. Looking back, if you factor in my $1200 original purchase price for the non-cat DW + add another $750 I had to fork up last week when I traded it in and got the Hearthstone Heritage, I would have been at about the same place I am now if I had bought the CAT model and new 8" chimney package from the start...lessons learned.

 

[BurningIsLove]

The chimney is in the garage on the opposite side of the wall from the living room. however both floors of the garage/shop have excellent windows & insulation, with the weakest point around the two garage doors themselves, even with new weather stripping. Right now the outdoor temp is 22, upstairs is about 62 and the garage is 55. So yes, there is some bleeding of heat to those rooms, but it's not like most garages or even worse, exterior chimneys. I also leave the connecting door to the garage open except between bedtime/morning, which is about 2 feet from the stove. So not all the heating in those two rooms comes from the chimney. I'm perfectly fine w/ the extra time required to heat the stack in an unheated room in order to produce efficient operations. The stove does operate more easily when the exterior chimney temp is 90+ degrees, but it still can be difficult even when at temp.

Again my apologies for the newbie question, but is installing a probe thermometer as simple as it sounds? In my case drilling a small hole through the concrete block & clay liner, inserting the probe, then sealing it? Would you recommend putting the probe at the ceiling of the garage, which is about 8 feet above the flue pipe connector? Or would it be more beneficial at the ceiling of the shop, which is about 9 feet above the garage ceiling?

I believe it's Mike that has the vertical flue connector.

 

[mikeathens]

Burning: it is as simple to put a probe in as you are thinking. HOWEVER, in your case, you need to keep in mind the thickness of the block you will be installing into. Most flue gas probes I have seen are made to place into double wall/single wall steel connectors - and there's a magnet to hold it in place, which might affect how the probe sticks in there even more. The blocks on your chimney might be an inch or more thick, which means the probe won't extend into the gas stream as much as might be necessary to get an accurate reading. My Condar probe is only about 4" long. I don't know...maybe there's some type of remote probe with an electronic signal, similar to the indoor/outdoor types that you see for sale everywhere? Might start a new thread asking if anyone knows where to get something like this to measure in the range you need. Possibly an industrial stack equipment supplier. I have seen digital stack temp. probes for industrial boiler (like 10 MMBtu/hr size).

 

[elkimmeg]

I’ll say it agin...too bad the X-Large DW catalytic doesn’t use a 6” flue. THAT would have been my replcement choice for the DW non-cat large.

Maybe if one searched long enough and done their research they would have discovered tyhe the Large Cat DW Vents into the same 8/8 clay flue they also would have discovered the the large cat has an optional 6" flue collar just like the Cat Encore and the Cat Defiant uses the only restriction is that the open fire screen can't be used The same flue collar used of the large cat or non cat DW stoves will fit on the XL DW Cat stove and it is reversiable I guess you dearer never asked or knew

Maybe if VC is actullay looking at these pages and gives a rat’s a**, they could work on developing the x-large DW to use a 6” flue. It’s too bad they don’t seem to care…

Mind if I chuckle a bit Goose and I asked the head Engineer of VC if the defiant could be used with the 6" flue collar we would have asked about the XL cat DW but since they are the same btu out put and size fire box VC told us the 6" flue collar option was tested and approved More evidence both stoves can be vented into an 8/8 clay flue

 

[mikeathens]

I’ll say it agin...too bad the X-Large DW catalytic doesn’t use a 6” flue. THAT would have been my replcement choice for the DW non-cat large.

Maybe if one searched long enough and done their research they would have discovered tyhe the Large Cat DW Vents into the same 8/8 clay flue they also would have discovered the the large cat has an optional 6" flue collar just like the Cat Encore and the Cat Defiant uses the only restriction is that the open fire screen can't be used The same flue collar used of the large cat or non cat DW stoves will fit on the XL DW Cat stove and it is reversiable I guess you dearer never asked or knew

No insult intended...but what you talkin' 'bout, wills??? I checked and was told by two dealers there wasn't a 6" option for that. In fact, I asked that exact question. Damnit! I was told that the 8" collar for the X-large DW cat was an 8" oval - flue collar from the medium wouldn't fit on it, and it wasn't an option. Guess I should have looked at the shop for myself. Too late now. I've moved enough 500 lb dead weight for the next few years.

 

[elkimmeg]

I will PM goose he was right there when I asked the question about the optional 6" flue collar option?

Want to confirm it yourself

Engineering Manager is Peter MacLeary 802 234-2383

 

[mikeathens]

I'm not going to confirm anything. Let's me just keep thinking that it wasn't an option. Too late now...

Why don't they list the 6" flue collar option in their manuals or other literature? I would think that more people would consider additional stoves if they knew that it was an option. I know I would have.

 

[elkimmeg]

Mike I wish I knew. I think they too are wound up in this everburn technology. Till I asked the only printed option was for the Encore but Iknew the 6" optional collar fit the encore and was the same dementions as the foot print for the defiant. the inside of a caly flue is about 6.75" /6.75" which is a reduction in area to the 8" flue collar. They list the 8" flue collares to be installed in 8/8 masonry lined chimneys and they are tested as such. My encore has the 6" flue collar It works about as good as it gets in the 8/8 clay liner.

I see the XL everburn is no longer listed in their products? did you notice that also the original listing of the non cat Encore was 50,000 BTUS but now listed at 40,000 I think the new EPA listings had something to do with BTU and effeciency listings now all non cat stoves are 63% all cat stoves 72% mine was originally listed ( I think 78%) Even the summits are listed 63% when originally they were in the 70%'s I asked VC about the 40,000 BTU listing of the non cat Encore and they explained they had to reduce it to reflect real world conditions for certifications so I said it is listed the same as the Resolute Acclaim what's the difference a smile and naturally they admit more heat comes out of a larger more effecient stove the Acclaim was not due for re-certification where adjustments need to be applied. I then asked why the Cat encore is rated 18% larger heating capacity that the non cat Encore with the same firebox size but the list the non cat for 10 hour burn and the cat for 9 hours. Believe it or not the resolute Acclaim is still one of there best sellers. They also would not tell me plans for the cat Intrepid that certification
expires this year. But they are working on enhancements they dropped the non Cat Intrepid did not sell that well and would not pass re-certification as it stood.

 

[mikeathens]

Quite intereting. I remember when I got my Lg. NC DW last year, it was listed at 80,000 Btu, but a few weeks later, it said 55,000 Btu. I really regret going with the NC everburn. My experience with their customer service and them not having a clue how to operate the stove really burned me (like the pun?). I got several answers on the "right way" to operate it (all apparently wrong to this point) and it looks like there still is no answer. It's too bad, becasue I LOVED my cat DW. I loved it so much, I always recommended it to my friends and family looking to buy wood stoves. I still would recommend it. I can't say the same to the non cat.

by the way elk, I'm pounding my head on the table right now thinking of that big, beautiful X-large DW cat sitting on my hearth. The hearthstone is a beautiful stove, but it is not as much efficiency as the XL DW cat. I should have known a couple weeks ago to be more insistent on getting a thumbs up on the XL DW cat 6" flue option when you mentioned that the defiant could use a 6". :long:

 

[elkimmeg]

Unless you buy a lot of parts one does not know the inter exchangeability from one model to another
for instance the griddle top is the same used in the Intrepid and Resolute Acclaim
a larger griddle is used for the Viligant Encore and Defiant by combining casting molds for simmilar models saves manufacturing cost.

ths flue collar option used for the encore is actually the Resolute Acclaim 6" collar again not really a a hardship to swap or make as it is made to fit many stoves.

The cat combustors are the same in the encore defiant and large winter warm the 2.5" by 13" and larger DW models.