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Elmer's or Heat-Fab Rigid Liner, plus tee ?'s

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by precaud, Jul 31, 2006.

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  1. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    OK, I've measured and drawn up the rigid liner for my chimney, am ready to order it, and can assemble it from either Elmer's or Heat-Fab components at comparable cost. Would anyone with experience with both favor one or the other?

    I have my own opinion, but I'm wondering what others think about the tee at the bottom of the stack: stainless, or painted steel?

    Oh, and why oh why do all tees have a female (non-crimped) end on the outlet that goes to the appliance, which clearly needs a crimped end there?

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  2. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    Don't have an opinion either way as to your brand, but the Tee at the bottom needs to be stainless. They usually sell stove top adapters that have the end crimped.
  3. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    Your reasons why?
    Yes, but the industry promotes a standard that the appliance end be crimped, and then they ALL make a piece, used in most systems, that doesn't conform to that standard...
  4. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    The regular steel one will rust out. I suppose they would make the tee a female to force people to buy one more chunk of pipe to adapt into the stove. That's my conspiracy theory.
  5. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    I have never used Elmer’s so I can only speak for Heatfab. GREAT PIPE!
    The Heatfab T is not CRIMPED but the Connector is sized for inside fit or to be able to fit into another connector.
    Sometimes when Pipe manufactures Says crimped they are just saying Undersized you don’t actually see the Crimp. Which is better because corrugated crimps tend to leak or Trap Creosote.

    If you use Stailess pipe Always Stay with Stainless for the whole systems. the Black pipe with be the weakest part of the system.
  6. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    That's good feedback, Rod, thanks.

    On the tee question, if one uses black stove pipe, then the stainless has to end somewhere... hence my question...
  7. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    Most Pros do not mix black pipe with SS but if you use Heatfab the SS and Black have the same joints. Male and female.
    I never cut Black pipe or SS unless it is at the top of a reline system. I always use a slip section to adjust length of pipe.
    because Heatfab has male and femail ends and if you cut the pipe you never get a good fit.
  8. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    Hmmm... interesting point, and thank you for bringing it up. From my drawing, I don't think I have enough length for a slip section in either the vertical or horizontal run from the tee to the stove... perhaps I should not use their pipe after the tee...
  9. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    An 18" slip section is a 18" Section of pipe that is smaller so it can fully slip INTO an maximum of 15" into another section of the same brand pipe. so if you use a 24" pipe with a 18" slip you will have a lenghth from 28" to up to about 40" (I took off 2" because I like to have a min of 2" of slip inside the normal length of pipe.

    note:
    The Top of the Slip is your Female end (that will connect to another pipe, Fitting or Flue and the Smaller section that slips into the regular section of pipe is down or towards the appliance.

    I think you can get details from the heatfab website
  10. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    Install instructions and explains Slips
    http://www.heat-fab.com/resources/pdf/PI-LINER.pdf

    <Snip from Install about SS>
    Non-Fireplace Chimney
    The first section of stove pipe will connect to the tee take off, either through
    a Saf-T Thimble or other listed and/or approved wall penetration assembly.
    Any stove pipe connector used which is not open to plain view from the
    room must be made of stainless steel.
    The wall penetration assembly
    must be located above the appliance and may not be located directly
    behind the heating appliance. Note: When a listed or approved wall
    penetration assembly is not used, the single wall connector pipe must be
    at least 18" from combustible construction materials.
    </end of snip>
    http://www.heat-fab.com/products/saftliner_desc.shtml
    http://www.heat-fab.com/resources/pdf/11414.pdf
  11. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    You can cut down the Slip part of a slip and use a shorter section of reqular pipe like a 18" or 12" if you need less pipe on the slip. Just make it a clean even cut on the male end.
  12. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    Yes, I know what a slip is... the problem is the short pipe lengths coming off the stove and into the tee, both in the 12" range. But if, as you say, the 18" slip can be shortened without adverse consequence, then that would be the ticket. The male of the slip would attach to the stove outlet in that case.

    "Any stove pipe connector used which is not open to plain view from the room must be made of stainless steel."

    Yes, and the tee is entirely visible in my installation.

    Thanks again for the good info!
  13. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    I would stay with a SS T because that is were most of the Moisture is going to collect.

    Are you going to have any flex pipe inthe system above the T. Could the T move back and forth?
    and just use regular Lenghts of pipe.

    You could cut a regular lenght of pipe on the male end that is going into the stove connector.
    I think that would be a better fit than looser fitting Slip section.
  14. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    No flex, just rigid liner. There's not much room for play, maybe an inch or so back or forward. There's probably a little more up and down...
    .
    Well that's what I was planning on doing before the slip idea came up. The question is: is the pipe body the same diameter as the male end? There's nothing on the Heat-Fab site that says or shows this clearly.
  15. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Heat-fab uses a beaded end and the male is the same size as the pipe, the female end is larger (swaged).

    The bead only allows one pipe to go X far into another.
  16. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    OK, great, I can cut to length then.
    I just read through HeatFab's installation instructions, and they no longer use a support clamp at the top plate. That means that the weight of the whole installation is borne elsewhere, i.e. on the stove. I feel uncomfortable with that.
  17. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    I use clamps all the time we make them up out of SS
  18. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    Well I ordered the complete liner and connecting pipe system yesterday. I decided to go with the Heat-Fab, just a little more impressed with them technology-wise. Total system (from raincap to stove) will be a little over 5 bills delivered.

    And I will say that, although I'm still not convinced that a welded 24 ga. SS pipe really has a significant advantage over a 22 ga. welded rolled steel pipe, I went with the stainless liner. And tee. So to those of you who pounded on me about it, you ultimate won the day.

    A word about web retailers for this stuff. Best prices were found on Ventingsystems.com . I really liked their online help system too, an instant-messaging connection to a guy who was immediately able to answer all my questions both times. Very cool. Web retailing at it's best. But they didn't get the order, because they only carried some of the components, and because they inflate their shipping charge, which is bad enough from NY to NM...

    Auto-Rain in Spokane was great. Their website is a tad funky, but prices are very competitive, they had most of what I needed in stock, and they went out of their way to get the few things they didn't from local dealers that same day. Now that's service. Very friendly folks to deal with too. And they don't have inflated shipping or phoney handling charges.
  19. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    Did you get the isulated Saf-T Wrap to go with it?
    <snip from install instructions>
    Saf-T Wrap is available in tee sections and 24" lengths, therefore two lengths will be required for each 4' section
    of Saf-T Liner. Saf-T Wrap must cover the Saf-T Liner from the appliance tee or the top of the smoke chamber
    area to within 8" but not closer than 3" of the top of the masonry chimney.

    </end of snip>
  20. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    Nope.
  21. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    Are you venting a wood appliance into a masonary chemney?
    if so then it is required to Insulate the liner.
    http://www.heat-fab.com/resources/pdf/PI-LINER.pdf

    <snip from Above link>
    Saf-T Liner is a high quality U.L. tested and Listed stainless steel lining system designed for relining existing
    masonry chimneys. It satisfies code requirements as a substitute for 5/8" fireclay liners and has undergone
    extensive testing to make it the leader in the stainless steel chimney lining industry. Heat-Fab recommends that
    the installation of Saf-T Liner be performed by an experienced professional who works with chimney and
    woodstove related products on a regular basis. Saf-T Wrap is a safe, high quality, easy to install ceramic
    insulation jacket for stainless steel lined masonry chimneys. Saf-T Wrap when used in conjunction with Saf-
    T Liner will upgrade a chimney to an HT type chimney system. The following instructions are intended as a guide
    to assist a qualified professional installer. Check your local building codes and contact local building or fire
    officials to obtain any required permits. Warning: Incorporation of parts or materials not manufactured or
    supplied by Heat-Fab may not provide a Listed system. Order Heat-Fab’s installation videotape for further
    information, available in VHS format.
    </end of snip>
  22. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    Required for what? By whom? And what will happen without the 1/4" insulation with aluminum shell ('cause that's all it is)?

    If you want to start a discussion of the actual and real benefits of insulated vs not, then I'm very interested to hear your experience and that of others as well. From what I've read, the cost vs benefit tradeoff of the wrap is not very good, especially in warmer climates.
  23. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    I'd like to add, if we're going to start said discussion, then let's do it in a new thread with the proper title so we can get broader involvement.
  24. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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  25. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    I just got my pipe in, and checked the tee... sorry, but it IS female, or sized for outside fit...
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