Englander "Madison" dirty glass

[AdkGal]

We've had the Madison for about 3 weeks now, and have had to clean the glass every morning. Also, we seem to be having a problem loading the stove w/o getting smoke in the room. We've been heating with a wood stove for over 30 years and this is a replacement stove. I'm just not understanding this smoke thing and the dirty glass every morning. Our wood is over a year old and is very dry. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Adirondack Gal (AdkGal)

 

[begreen]

Welcome AdkGal. Modern stoves need stronger draft and are quite particular about needing fully seasoned wood to burn at their optimum. Describe the entire flue system from stove to the chimney cap including turns in the flue path and the total height of the system. How well seasoned is the wood?

 

[AdkGal]

Welcome AdkGal. Modern stoves need stronger draft and are quite particular about needing fully seasoned wood to burn at their optimum. Describe the entire flue system from stove to the chimney cap including turns in the flue path and the total height of the system. How well seasoned is the wood?

Thanks for the welcome!

I honestly feel the draft isn't as good as it should be, but then again, it hasn't been overly cold with mid 30's during the day and 20's at night. The chimney is single wall 24 ga. for approx 5 feet, then metalbestos into the attic and through the roof for approximately 9 feet. I've been thinking of adding another 18 inch section of metalbestos to help with the draw/draft. If I go any taller, I won't be able to clean the chimney when needed.

Our wood has been cut for over a year, is fairly finely split (3-4 inch) , and is only 11 to 12 inches in length. My old wood stove burned smaller wood. That being said, the shorter and smaller in diameter just makes it dry more quickly in the woodshed. So, yes, my wood is very dry.

AdkGal

 

[Van]

AdkGal,

The fact that you are getting smoke into the room when loading the stove indicates that you do not have sufficient draft for the Madison as Begreen sugggests.

Of course a properly sized flue assumes that you do not have a negative air pressure situation in your house.
This will starve the stove's need for combustion air, which can cause the creosote build up on your glass (not burning hot enough) and the smoke pouring into the room when you load the stove.

Try connecting an outside air supply to the Madison as it may solve the problem.
It will certainly be cheaper than a chimney extension.

Regarding an outside combustion supply, I looked at the online installation manual for your Madison and this is what the Manufacturer recommends:

Outside Combustion Air
The use of outside combustion air is mandatory when installing this wood stove in a mobile or manufactured home. • The outside air connection pipe protrudes from the bottom center of the stove; a kit is available from England’s Stove Works, Inc. designed for connecting this unit to outside combustion air. [Part No. AC‐OAK3] • If it is not feasible to use the AC‐OAK3 outside air hookup kit in your stove installation, other materials may be used, provided the following rules are followed:

The pipe used for outside air hookup must be metal, with a minimum thickness of .0209in. (25 gauge mild steel) or greater and an inside diameter of approximately 2.75 in.
Keep pipe runs short and use a mechanical fastener at each pipe joint.
A screen or other protection device must be fitted over the outside air termination point to prevent rain, debris and nuisance animals from entering the piping system. Inspect the outside combustion air inlet for block and debris monthly. ​

Let us know what you decide to do.

 

[begreen]

Below 45ºF the stove should be drafting well. It needs at least 15 ft of pipe. Adding 18" will help, 2-3ft even more so.

 

[Van]

I just installed a new stove and my existing chimney is only 11'.
The manufacturer states 15' minimum but following Begreen's suggestion on this forum I waited until after the installation before adding another 4' of chimney extension.
It turned out that I am getting great draft with only 11' \
One thing though, I am running both inside and outside combustion air though the manufacturer suggests one or the other.

 

[begreen]

PE stoves are very easy breathers. They can get away with less chimney than most tube secondary stoves.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

I had that problem with dirty glass when i first got my stove. It'd run fine all day but when i'd go to bed at night i was pushing the air control rod all the way in for the over night burn and apparently starving it for air. In the morning i'd awaken to a filthy glass and wonder what the heck was going on. Took me awhile to figure that out with some help from this forum. Just my 2 cents.

 

[AdkGal]

I was going to go up on the roof today to get some measurements, but it's snowing like crazy and I will wait for a nicer day. I will get the maximum length of pipe possible that will allow me to still clean the chimney. I do like the idea about outside air for combustion. This house is fairly airtight, and negative air IS a concern. I will let you guys know when I get more chimney pipe. Now, the issue will be finding the Metalbestos pipe locally. Everyone seems to be selling the SuperVent which isn't compatible with the older pipe.

Thanks again, you guys ROCK!
AdkGal

 

[spirilis]

I do have to clean the glass on occasion. Usually if I only built a small fire or the wood was a bit wet (e.g. from rain getting on the kindling). But I've never seen it dark like creosote, just brown stuff that wipes off easily with a wet paper towel.

 

[Van]

I was going to go up on the roof today to get some measurements, but it's snowing like crazy and I will wait for a nicer day. I will get the maximum length of pipe possible that will allow me to still clean the chimney. I do like the idea about outside air for combustion. This house is fairly airtight, and negative air IS a concern. I will let you guys know when I get more chimney pipe. Now, the issue will be finding the Metalbestos pipe locally. Everyone seems to be selling the SuperVent which isn't compatible with the older pipe.

Thanks again, you guys ROCK!
AdkGal

Regarding the possibility of an airtight house influencing your chimney draft, try cracking a window and see how the chimney draws.
But know that if you have an interior bathroom with a ceiling vent fan you have an outside air supply.
I assume that the manufacturer requires an outside combustion air supply for mobile or manufactured homes because they are so airtight, as you already deduced may be your problem.

 

[jrems]

Also is your chimney 6" or 8"? You mentioned this was a replacement stove, many older stoves used 8". If it is 8" an extention might not help much.
Also replace the interior single wall with double wall, any help you can do to keep the flue hot will help the draft.

 

[Van]

Also is your chimney 6" or 8"? You mentioned this was a replacement stove, many older stoves used 8". If it is 8" an extention might not help much.
Also replace the interior single wall with double wall, any help you can do to keep the flue hot will help the draft.

Ditto on all the jrems says.
I also cannot believe that an 18" extension will change the draft enough to make the difference you need.
Likely your chimney flu is to large in diameter.

 

[Hogwildz]

Most hard wood at 1 yr cut & split simply is not dry enough to burn in a new type stove. Sure you could toss just about anything in the old stove and it would burn, but not the new ones. What was "dry enough" for the old dragon, is not dry enough for a new modern stove.

 

[Van]

If were only the wood you could buy some kiln dried firewood locally and see what difference it makes.

 

[spirilis]

Also minor note, if the air control is fully closed (pulled all the way out) there will be no airflow going through the airwash route so the glass has no protection from smoke. I always pull the air control out all the way then back it in a very small amount to put it into a cruise... unless it's overfiring (then I pull it out hard-stop).

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

Yeah, her problem is exactly like mine when i first got my stove. Im betting, like me, she's getting smoke in the room cause the chimney is short and dirty glass because she's turning down the air to much when she goes to bed.
I couldnt make my chimney to much taller either or it'd be to high to clean so i just load fast. Im around 12 ft for my chimney. Colder weather will help with the draft once the stove is hot so that problem may lessen. And try giving it more air for the over night burn, i bet the dirty glass goes away.

 

[natas420]

We've had the Madison for about 3 weeks now, and have had to clean the glass every morning. Also, we seem to be having a problem loading the stove w/o getting smoke in the room. We've been heating with a wood stove for over 30 years and this is a replacement stove. I'm just not understanding this smoke thing and the dirty glass every morning. Our wood is over a year old and is very dry. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Adirondack Gal (AdkGal)

For the glass, believe it or not, what works better than simple green, or 409, or windex, or vinegar, or Myers, or whatever: a utility knife razor blade (even an older but still sharp blade). It comes right off. Finish if needed ,with your favorite glass cleaner.

 

[spirilis]

I have a nice well insulated 6" x 20ft M&G DuraLiner rigid flue liner and my Madison pours smoke in the room with the door open any wider than 1" or so fwiw. So it's the stove IMO, but I always heard EPA certified stoves are like that... I guess due to the baffle design. Many older stoves were designed to double as an open fireplace in a pinch so I guess they were designed to handle the smoke better.

 

[spirilis]

Also for the most part, handling EPA cert stoves is best accomplished by burning in "batches" - waiting until the stovetop is around 200-250F or so before reloading and the firebox is nothing but coals. Under these circumstances there won't be much smoke to annoy you when you go to reload.

 

[begreen]

I have a nice well insulated 6" x 20ft M&G DuraLiner rigid flue liner and my Madison pours smoke in the room with the door open any wider than 1" or so fwiw. So it's the stove IMO, but I always heard EPA certified stoves are like that... I guess due to the baffle design. Many older stoves were designed to double as an open fireplace in a pinch so I guess they were designed to handle the smoke better.

Smoke spillage is a sign there's a problem. It's uncommon for EPA or non-EPA stoves. This It sounds like there may be negative pressure in the room or something slowing down the draft. Possible suspects would be a clogged cap screen (if there is one) too many 90º turns in the flue path, clogged liner, poor chimney location relative to the house or terrain.

If it's negative pressure here's one thing to try - open a nearby window about an inch before opening the stove door. Is there a strong draft coming in from the window? Does it make any difference for the smoke spillage problem?

 

[AdkGal]

I now have an additional 18 inch metalbestos on the top of the chimney. It will be a stretch, but I can still get it cleaned out when needed. That, plus a little more experience burning this stove, is helping. It's not perfect yet, but it's about 60 to 70% better. If and when I do have dirty glass, it's always soft brown and easy to clean now. There is a fan in the bathroom, so we aren't in a negative air situation. However, I will try to open a window an inch tomorrow to see if the draw is better. I keep reading everyone's suggestions, and they're helpful.. each and every one of them!

Thanks Guys!
AdkGal

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the update. As temps drop outside draft will also improve.

 

[spirilis]

Yup I sometimes get brown soot on the lower half of the glass but when the fire really reaches the lower fuel bed the coals seem to bake off the soot and the glass ends up clean or maybe white from ash in spots.

 

[WayneN]

Most hard wood at 1 yr cut & split simply is not dry enough to burn in a new type stove. Sure you could toss just about anything in the old stove and it would burn, but not the new ones. What was "dry enough" for the old dragon, is not dry enough for a new modern stove.

I disagree with this statement. I have a Madison so I can speak from experience. I've burned green wood a few times and never had an issue with smoke, drafting, or dirty glass. I have approx 3.5 feet of single wall black 6" pipe fed into a single wall elbow, then a 24 inch 3 wall ( through the wall thimble ), into the T connector, and then up 15 feet. Perfect draft. If I open the air up, even wet wood burns.

That said, if I cut air off complety( pulling the damper out ) and let it go overnight, I do get a bit of brown on the glass.

When I say green...I mean it was cut down and I split it this week.... I know it's not good to do but I'm waiting on my seasoned cord to be delivered....but that's not the point.

Draft is very important. I'm in a 2 level brick townhouse ( no insulation and built in the 60's ) totaling 1024 ft not counting the basement. I'm sure I have plenty of air leaks from doors / windows to help the draft.

It sounds like your chimney isn't drawing properly. More added to it may help. My air draws from the room it's in and not from an outside air suplly.

Just my $.02 and like I said....I actually burn in a madison. I've been pulling the damper halfway out overnight to solve the brown glass issue. I'm still learning myself as this is my first winter ever heating with a wood stove lol


Another thing. Wood placement and arranging your coals also make a big difference in how it burns. I've been raking the coals into a N/S line in the center. Then put a couple big splits on either side. Then cross the next row EW on top like you're building a platform. Even my wet wood burns pretty hot in this configuration and burns the coals in the center down.


Learned and lot on this forum. Tons of good advice here!


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