EPA new wood stove requirements!

[j7art2]

You shouldn't lump all catalytic stoves in one bunch. There are many who are very happy with there cat and hybrid stoves.


We are living in interesting times as far as wood stove technology. as a consumer with no skin in the game so to speak, I think we will all benefit. I know there is NO WAY I would go back to the old smoke dragon in my home and hope there's a stove made in the next twenty years that will make me say the same about the BK I'm running now.

I understand that some people are happy with them. The occasional wood burner would probably never encounter an issue. The hardcore wood burner who heats solely with wood and uses 12 cords a year on the other hand (me) very well could.

The design of catalytic converters simply doesn't work well in wood stove technology, which is why it isn't used much anymore, and why you don't widely find the old retrofit kits for dinosaur wood burners like mine anymore. With MC over 27%, they clog, and are not often easily accessed for cleaning. Yes, I understand we shouldn't be burning above 20% MC, however when you have well over 5000 logs sitting around waiting to be burned, there's no way to guarantee that every piece is exactly where I need it. Most of it is likely close since I season my wood properly, but nobody has time to check every single piece they burn.

The other issue with catalytic converters are that they are often platinum or plutonium plated, and this plating wears out. Anyone involved in the scrapping business knows that catalytic converters rake in by far the most money of any metal on the market. CC's wear out, and when they do, we're talking $200-400 for a replacement, if it's even replaceable.


Just my opinion, but given the choice, I'd choose a stove without one rather than with one, even if the one with the CC was the same price (it wouldn't be, but that's beside the point) and more efficient.

 

[Jags]

j7art2 - I do believe that Woodstock and Blaze King, and a handful of others would refute your argument. Some of the best technology on the market is coming from cat or hybrid stoves. Ask our Canadian and Alaskan hardcore burners what brand they are using? Blaze King is very popular and for good reason.

The design of catalytic converters simply doesn't work well in wood stove technology, which is why it isn't used much anymore,

This is flawed in too many ways to count. You are entitled to your opinion or preference, but bashing cat stoves for not working well is probably not going to gain you any traction.

 

[semipro]

The other issue with catalytic converters are that they are often platinum or plutonium plated,

I wonder how well they would work if they really were plutonium plated.

 

[brant2000]

I wonder how well they would work if they really were plutonium plated.

That would be a hot [radioactive] stove.

 

[Jags]

Hmmm...it could help explain some of the performance numbers from Blaze King.

 

[Poindexter]

Palladium / Plutonium / auto correct.

I agree that sizing a catalytic stove to the heating envelope is very important. When my local ambients get down to the -40s dF and stay there the next morning I have had to shovel out perfectly good burning hot coals and replace them with fresh wood - twice. Like wise in shoulder season mine is a bit fussy about draft. But from about freezing down to -30 or -35F (the heart and soul of my winter season) I have exactly the right size stove for my envelope.

I have a hard time feeling especially charitable for an operator who has thousands of splits in stock and chooses to burn 27%MC. How about little yard sale signs around the various woodpiles "split 2012", "split 2013" and etc?

 

[tarzan]

I understand that some people are happy with them. The occasional wood burner would probably never encounter an issue. The hardcore wood burner who heats solely with wood and uses 12 cords a year on the other hand (me) very well could.

There are many cat stove owners here (myself included) that would be offended by being called an occasional wood burner.

I'm not even sure how to respond to the rest of your post except to suggest you do some research. Agreed that cat stoves have had there flawes (as well as cat stove owners) but to suggest cat stove technology is flawed or isn't used much anymore simply isn't true.

 

[semipro]

I've run numerous stoves both catalytic and non-catalytic - at least 2 different types of each.
Though I don't totally agree with j7art2 I do believe that catalytic stoves require a bit more as far as attention to operation and maintenance. On the flip side, you get more for your efforts...heat and clean air.
Also, with the advent of more electronic controls on stoves and tighter regs I see a bigger role for catalytic units. The electronic controls, IMO, will simplify the operation of cat stoves and decrease the related required maintenance.

 

[Poindexter]

I've run numerous stoves both catalytic and non-catalytic - at least 2 different types of each.
Though I don't totally agree with j7art2 I do believe that catalytic stoves require a bit more as far as attention to operation and maintenance. On the flip side, you get more for your efforts...heat and clean air.
Also, with the advent of more electronic controls on stoves and tighter regs I see a bigger role for catalytic units. The electronic controls, IMO, will simplify the operation of cat stoves and decrease the related required maintenance.

I suspect electronic controls will not simplify maintenance. I can envision a stove with an electronic pre-heater for the catalyst like GM has been using fro going on 20 years. In cars a hot cat is an active cat so the computer can operate closed loop, knowing all the fuel dispensed at the injectors is burnt by monitoring the output of the catalyst. Before the cat is hot, open loop, the computer is kinda guessing at how much fuel ought to be about right.

So in a stove a cat preheater to get the catalyst on line quick and some kind of monitor to adjust the airflow based on the cat output once the cat is hot - so lower operational involvement by the operator; but I think we'll get higher maintenance requirements outside of day to day operations.

When was the last time you had to brush out the exhaust pipe on your car? How wide an envelope can the mfrs get the stove to operate in, what happens when the stack gets narrow? or the outdoor ambient changes? They'll almost need a permanent manometer in the flue as part of the stove. Little warning lights that your manometer reading is low or to check the moisture content of your wood...

 

[semipro]

I suspect electronic controls will not simplify maintenance.

I was thinking specifically of maintenance of the cat itself which I think would benefit from the electronic controls (but I didn't make that clear).
I compare stoves now to the vehicles of the 80s. They were loaded with various emission control systems and carburetors, some electronically controlled. They were on the brink of a major transformation and a mess. Then manufacturers went with fuel injection and even with the complex electronic controls required there maintenance and repairs became easier (IMO). I was there working as a mechanic to witness the transformation.

 

[j7art2]

Palladium / Plutonium / auto correct.

I agree that sizing a catalytic stove to the heating envelope is very important. When my local ambients get down to the -40s dF and stay there the next morning I have had to shovel out perfectly good burning hot coals and replace them with fresh wood - twice. Like wise in shoulder season mine is a bit fussy about draft. But from about freezing down to -30 or -35F (the heart and soul of my winter season) I have exactly the right size stove for my envelope.

I have a hard time feeling especially charitable for an operator who has thousands of splits in stock and chooses to burn 27%MC. How about little yard sale signs around the various woodpiles "split 2012", "split 2013" and etc?

Yep, auto correct typo, thanks. Draft for me is a VERY large concern. I have a 30 foot chimney, and my wood furnace is in the basement. As it is, I already have draft issues with my dinosaur with a fresh air intake installed and a spotless flue. Adding more 'in the way' doesn't help with that.

As far as choosing to burn 27% MC, I don't have control over the rate at which each piece of wood dries. I've had split pieces of Box Elder that have seasoned for 3 years still register a high 47%, and have had pieces of live ash that I have cut and burned the same day. I take precautions to make sure my wood is dry, but I cannot verify the dryness of every single piece; that's the point I'm trying to make. If I have wood sitting for 3 years, it's going in my wood furnace and is assumed dry unless I pick it up and it's soaked. No one has the time to measure the individual content of each piece when you're burning through 5000 pieces a year.

To address the others (Not Poindexter in particular) It appears that I am clearly wrong on catalytic converters and haven't done my research. I have a perfectly capable 40 year old Energy Mate wood furnace and am looking to get a new unit for a reason. I am very able to install a catalytic converter kit for pennies on the dollar of the cost of a new unit purchase and install. I haven't installed one for a reason. Perhaps retrofitting older units are the ones with issues, but as cheap and frugal as I am, I'm not about to piss away $300 to further my problems only to have to replace the unit anyway. My research has shown me that retrofitted cats, at the bare minimum aren't worth the hassle, and when I look at units for my particular setup (basement installed wood furnace) the amount with catalytic converters are less than 25%.

They make work for YOU and YOUR setup, but a blanket statement that they will work for all setups is likely inaccurate. If they did, Yukon Eagle and Kuuma would gladly be using them now, and would squeeze out even more than the 80%-90% efficiency from their units, wouldn't they? Who wouldn't want to boast the most efficient wood furnace on the market? That's a bold claim and title to hold. In fact, Kuuma boasts that they don't use a catalytic converter. What does that tell you?

 

[Jags]

Basing your opinion of cats on a retrofit option for a 40 year old furnace is not fair to the cat technology and design of current stoves. That is an apples to horse shoes comparison.

 

[j7art2]

Basing your opinion of cats on a retrofit option for a 40 year old furnace is not fair to the cat technology and design of current stoves. That is an apples to horse shoes comparison.

Educate me then. Why are there virtually no wood furnaces on the market with catalytic converters? I don't know every single manufacturer of wood furnaces and every single wood furnace on the market, but I don't know of a single one that uses them. There has to be a reason.

I didn't base my statement solely on research from retrofitting my current unit.

 

[begreen]

I'm curious, how many sq ft are you heating?

 

[j7art2]

I personally heat 1700sqft on average of 72dF if I have my way. House was built in 1970, fairly well insulated. It's a chalet style home, so it's very tall. 12x12 pitch roof. Why do you ask?

Unit has to be installed in the basement and attachable to the current LP furnace in an addon design. Looking for units for me?

I've already got a Drolet Tundra or Super Jack picked out.

 

[jatoxico]

Educate me then. Why are there virtually no wood furnaces on the market with catalytic converters? I don't know every single manufacturer of wood furnaces and every single wood furnace on the market, but I don't know of a single one that uses them. There has to be a reason.

I didn't base my statement solely on research from retrofitting my current unit.

I think wood furnaces are EPA exempt, only subject to local regulation.

 

[brant2000]

Educate me then. Why are there virtually no wood furnaces on the market with catalytic converters? I don't know every single manufacturer of wood furnaces and every single wood furnace on the market, but I don't know of a single one that uses them. There has to be a reason.

I didn't base my statement solely on research from retrofitting my current unit.

I'm not that up on the current furnace market, but suspect that it's a combination of several factors - lack of regulatory requirement forcing reduced emissions, small market - which reduces the competitive push for manufacturers to out-do each other, and also partially from the fact that catalytic appliances operate the best when they are operating at a lowered fire rate - this would go against the typical operation for a furnace.

 

[Jags]

Why are there virtually no wood furnaces on the market with catalytic converters?

They are regulated by a different set of rules. Show me an EPA phase II certified wood furnace.

 

[begreen]

I personally heat 1700sqft on average of 72dF if I have my way. House was built in 1970, fairly well insulated. It's a chalet style home, so it's very tall. 12x12 pitch roof. Why do you ask?

The wood consumption seems very high. When you say 12 cords do you mean face cords or full cords?

 

[j7art2]

I think wood furnaces are EPA exempt, only subject to local regulation.

They have longer to comply, but I emailed Drolet and asked for clarification, and they still have guidelines they have to abide by. There was a posting earlier in the thread about these, the regulations they will need to be following. I'm having difficulty deciphering exactly when the cut off date is for compliance though. After speaking with Drolet, it sounds like the Tundra for example, will likely be phased out, and they will be working on another (larger) unit completely. The current Tundra, though EPA certified right now does not meet new upcoming regulations. Close, but no cigar. They've told me that they are planning on releasing a new larger unit in the future, and to watch for it. If it was as easy as installing a cat to meet emissions, why reinvent the wheel?

 

[j7art2]

The wood consumption seems very high. When you say 12 cords do you mean face cords or full cords?

Full. I cut 12 this year total, and I've got about 2 left. I haven't used all 12 yet, but if the weather keeps it up this way, I will be. I installed my fresh air intake just last month, and noticed a slight difference. I've been burning since the beginning of October, maybe earlier.

 

[begreen]

They are regulated by a different set of rules. Show me an EPA phase II certified wood furnace.

I think the PSG Caddy furnace is EPA phase 2.

 

[brant2000]

If it was as easy as installing a cat to meet emissions, why reinvent the wheel?

It's not really that easy. You do realize that cat's can't just be placed in the normal flue gas path? They have to have a bypass means to allow startup...this complicates things a bit. And the cost is also something that I'm sure most want to avoid.

 

[begreen]

Full. I cut 12 this year total, and I've got about 2 left. I haven't used all 12 yet, but if the weather keeps it up this way, I will be. I installed my fresh air intake just last month, and noticed a slight difference. I've been burning since the beginning of October, maybe earlier.

That is a huge amount of wood to heat a 1700 sq ft house. I would guess a Blaze King King stove with dry fuel could cut that down 2/3ds. Part of the issue is green wood though. It can be made to burn, but the heat loss and emissions are high.

 

[Jags]

I think the PSG Caddy furnace is EPA phase 2.

I think you are correct. But the Caddy gets there by design (some fancy re-burn technology) and is one of the first on the block to be certified. Point is - in the future we may very well see cat furnaces as EPA restrictions apply. Currently, not so much because they simply don't NEED to.