EV developments
- Thread starter begreen
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The trend towards buyjng hybrids? Everything I see has the share of PHEVs growing more slowly than BEVs, and the share of pure hybrids (HEVs) shrinking outright. Sales of the Prius peaked in the US about 10 years ago IIRC.
PHEVs were popular in Germany for many years due to incentives that favored them as 'company cars'. But since the companies reimbursed gas but not kWh, many of them were never plugged in at all. Sales of PHEVs in Germany fell off a cliff when the incentives were removed a couple years ago.
Apparently not in the midwest and colder areas. The charging infrastructure is not there and what is, is not always reliable. I have been listening in on some of the EV Reddit groups and those dependent on charging stations are not happy with Electrify America's dysfunctional hardware and software.
apnews.com
More US auto buyers are turning to hybrids as sales of electric vehicles slow
While EV sales are growing, their pace is falling well short of the industry’s ambitious timetable for transitioning away from combustion engines.
apnews.com
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Hmmm. IMO 'Hybrids' is a meaningless concept here bc it includes mild hybrids and simple technology for regen braking.
Also, the whole 'electric vehicles sales slow' thing is FUD: sales are still up YoY. What you have is US legacy makers and dealers whining that their sales are ONLY increasing linearly, rather than exponentially, in the face of high interest rates, dealer markups, and increasing MSRPs.
That said, Electrify America IS going down the tubes at the moment out east, not just elsewhere. I have now given up on them, and use other networks as my primary.
Also, the whole 'electric vehicles sales slow' thing is FUD: sales are still up YoY. What you have is US legacy makers and dealers whining that their sales are ONLY increasing linearly, rather than exponentially, in the face of high interest rates, dealer markups, and increasing MSRPs.
That said, Electrify America IS going down the tubes at the moment out east, not just elsewhere. I have now given up on them, and use other networks as my primary.
Yes, that's true, EV sales are growing, but hybrid sales are outpacing them for the reasons stated in the article. People in cold areas want good heat and defrosting. They want range in the cold where there are larger distances between destinations. If a mild hybrid gives them an extra 10-15 mpg, they are happy campers. And they want predictable charging networks, not gambling or hoping that one out of 5 chargers is vacant and will work.
My wife is reluctant for us to sell the Volt and get an EV. It's been a really sweet ride so far and ticks all the boxes. If we drive down to California, it's a 1500-2000 mile round trip ride. On a long trip, getting gas is a 10 minute pit stop. A friend did this recently and charging added a couple days to their travel itinerary.
My wife is reluctant for us to sell the Volt and get an EV. It's been a really sweet ride so far and ticks all the boxes. If we drive down to California, it's a 1500-2000 mile round trip ride. On a long trip, getting gas is a 10 minute pit stop. A friend did this recently and charging added a couple days to their travel itinerary.
Yes, their business model is poor. This affects lots of Hyundai, Kia, and VW owners which had free charging as part of the purchase offer.
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EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Norway and Finland are proof the cold weather and EV are fine. Yeah yeah your range will suffer. OK move on. It’s the low price of gas that’s influencing EV sales. No way the road trip economics works if you are paying more than $0.35 KWh and gas is below 2.75. Any daily drives less than 399 miles I don’t see any advantage for hybrids. I’m trying to add up those days for us. We had 6 days and about 5800 miles.
Every automaker on Teslas NACS charging network will change lots of minds.
Every automaker on Teslas NACS charging network will change lots of minds.
sloeffle
Minister of Fire
Some folks, such as myself are already hesitant on buying tech from Google, Amazon, and Facebook etc etc because of the amount of personal data that they harvest, I couldn't imaging buying a Chinese vehicle. Based off of surveillance China has done of their own people in their own country and their various laws ( the government can access company data at anytime ) I'd have a hard believing that the average American would be okay with all of their personal driving habits going back to China. But money, and cost are huge drivers for a lot of folks purchases no matter what they are sacrificing, that's why Facebook and Gmail are "free".
My dad got an Android phone a few years ago. I probably spent an hour turning off all of the data harvesting settings. That's one of the reasons that GM got rid of Apple Play and Android Auto. PII ( personal identifiable information ) is the new gold.
Sure. But in my mind, a mild hybrid is just another ICE vehicle with slightly higher mpg.
I guess why the article is rubbing me the wrong way is bc is juxtaposes the 'idea' that EV sales are declining (which is untrue) with the fact that 'hybrids' are increasing. IMO, these hybrids are scavenging sales from non-hybrid ICE cars, whose sales are REALLY declining.
So, EV sales growing linearly... media says 'EV sales are declining'. ICE sales peaked globally in 2018 and have been falling consistently since then... media has crickets and says 'this one [cherrypicked] category of ICE vehicles [unspecified hybrids in the US] are increasing faster than EVs are'.
So, rather than the article's narrative 'all those folks in the midwest are picking hybrids over EVs' I could counter... increasing CAFE standards are forcing ICE makers to boost mpg by all means possible, and to discount these more complex vehicles to get them out the door... so folks are buying these mild hybrids the legacy makers are dumping on the market, over lower tech gas guzzling ICE cars.
I still have my 2015 Volt, and use it for longer road trips. I'll take the Bolt on trips up to 300 miles or so each way, and the Volt on longer ones.
Your saying that GM wants to harvest and sell all the data itself I assume?
I figured GM was in it for the $40/mo service fee, for some simple software that doesn't work very well, and that will never be updated.
sloeffle
Minister of Fire
Correct, I bet in the fine print of the agreement when you buy the car, they are legally allowed to sell what your habits are ( do you eat at McDonalds, or stop at Sheets for gas ), what kind of apps you've bought, driving habits etc. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if auto insurance companies buy this data. I'm sure they are also looking at it as an addition revenue stream, as you pointed out. Tesla has been doing this for years and. they are all trying to play catch up with Tesla.
It's no different than what Facebook does with your data. I looked into building an ad one time for my side business. I could literally say I wanted the ad marketed to people who were roughly this monetary demographic, belong to these Facebook groups, are X age, gender, and the list goes on. It was pretty scary actually.
Who Owns the Data Your Car Collects?
Who owns the data your car collects, and how should it be used? Consumer Reports says today’s high-tech vehicles are wireless data collectors on wheels.
www.consumerreports.org
It's no different than what Facebook does with your data. I looked into building an ad one time for my side business. I could literally say I wanted the ad marketed to people who were roughly this monetary demographic, belong to these Facebook groups, are X age, gender, and the list goes on. It was pretty scary actually.
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EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I asked my wife what drawer her spans went in. Next add I got on YouTube was for shaping underwear. I assume all my conversations and driving are being cataloged.Correct, I bet in the fine print of the agreement when you buy the car, they are legally allowed to sell what your habits are ( do you eat at McDonalds, or stop at Sheets for gas ), what kind of apps you've bought, driving habits etc. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if auto insurance companies buy this data. I'm sure they are also looking at it as an addition revenue stream, as you pointed out. Tesla has been doing this for years and. they are all trying to play catch up with Tesla.
Who Owns the Data Your Car Collects?
Who owns the data your car collects, and how should it be used? Consumer Reports says today’s high-tech vehicles are wireless data collectors on wheels.www.consumerreports.org
It's no different than what Facebook does with your data. I looked into building an ad one time for my side business. I could literally say I wanted the ad marketed to people who were roughly this monetary demographic, belong to these Facebook groups, are X age, gender, and the list goes on. It was pretty scary actually.
Meanwhile, in Europe, diesel car sales have dropped from 50% in 2015 to 12% last year. Hybrids continue to lead in this market too but EVs sales are growing rapidly.
sloeffle
Minister of Fire
Definitely not a Tesla or Elon fan. Yet another reason I’d never give Elon a cent of my hard earned money. All Elon cares about is his own wealth.
We have 10,000 miles on our Model 3. Nothing has fallen off. All cars have recalls. My ford fusion has had several. Having said that i don't view Elon as a God and i'm not part of the cult. We just wanted an efficient car and the price was right with tax credits. Charging at home 100% of the time has saved some money, but with gasoline so cheap the savings isn't huge.
Agree on the gasoline prices being a huge factor. Vehicle costs are also a big one. We looked at a few different vehicles last spring (Lexus/Toyota/etc) and with dealership markup fees i said no way. I may never buy a vehicle from a dealership again unless they change their methods. We use to have a local car place that was very fair--the price on the car was the price you paid for it/not gimmicks/add ons/etc --until they got bought out.
Megunticook
Member
sloeffle
Minister of Fire
No disagreement there.
But the Reuters article clearly states that Tesla knew they were building vehicles with defective parts, yet made the customers pay for the repair of those defective parts. That’s a totally different story, and how’s that a good business practice ? Please see the quote below from the article:
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Further to this, the US Midwest and Canadian Prairie's electrical grids are still primarily powered by fossil fuels. The carbon reduction of EVs vs a hybrid is significantly less than other areas of the continent, particularly when considering an ICE or hybrid uses waste heat for the cabin, while an EV must use significant battery capacity (and more electricity from the grid) to heat the cabin with resistive electric.
I fully agree with you, the hybrid is the preferred option for most people in colder climates.
Unfortunately that is a disingenuous argument. Due to the proximity to the ocean the majority of Norway and Finland have fairly mild winters. Most inland parts of North America north of 40 Latitude are going to experience colder winters than Norway and Finland's population centers. Then there's the fact that both countries have their populations concentrated in the south, and in general the possible distances travelled are shorter and charging stations are more abundant, making shorter winter range a non-issue. Then we can also consider that the Nordic countries rely heavily on hydro-electricity, which makes the CO2 reduction far more drastic, but also makes the electrical grid more readily dispatchable and able to take on the large EV charging loads.
There's parts of the southeast US as well (talking South Carolina here) that have carbon intensities of over 1kg/kwh of electricity. It makes far more sense to divert any EV subsidies to cleaning up that grid before you put more load on it in the form of EVs.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I agree about the climate of Scandinavia, but cold climate range is a non issue for daily driving for 95% of those north 41 degrees. Regional targets/subsidies are good idea. But…. No chance we meet any climate goals if we all switch to 21 mpg hybrids. We LOVE our V8s to drive kids to school and sit for an hour in the pick up line blast the AC here in the south.
Really is is all Toyota could do??? Why bother IMO.
??? A mid-sized Camry hybrid gets over double that mileage. The big Highlander Hybrid gets 35 mpg which is great for 7-8 passenger vehicle. Most folks do not need or drive a massive 3 ton SUV like the Sequoia.
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There's winners and losers as always with automotive design. In it's defense though the hybrid Sequoia does achieve better economy than many of its competitors that operate on a standard ICE engine. I'd I were getting a vehicle in that category it would be a Tahoe or Yukon with the 3.0 diesel, it gets 28mpg on the highway. But as begreen has mentioned, the highlander is a better option. We've been looking at SUVs lately, right now we'd probably get a VW Atlas, it's I4 turbo isn't much worse on fuel than the hybrid Highlander, and I can get one today, Toyota is on backorder for all hybrids right now, probably 6 months to get one.
Over time the concept of a hybrid will change, my parents have the RAV4 hybrid, with the measly 1.6kwh battery, it yields impressive mileage in the city and still reasonable gains on the highway compared to the pure ICE version. As time goes on there will be more emphasis on the EV powertrain and the batteries will grow, and I believe the engines will become smaller and more like range extenders (like the chevy volt).
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Didn’t read this but is should have lots of good info
Ford just announced they are going to shift emphasis to hybrids for the short term.
Lawler said Ford “became a little bit complacent” on hybrids. He said hybrids were always a big part of the mix, and “with EV adoption slower, hybrids are going to be a bigger part.”
electrek.co
Lawler said Ford “became a little bit complacent” on hybrids. He said hybrids were always a big part of the mix, and “with EV adoption slower, hybrids are going to be a bigger part.”
Ford will follow Toyota as it leans into hybrids, scaling back EV targets
As Ford struggles amid the industry’s shift to EVs, the automaker plans to lean into its hybrids. In a move...
electrek.co