EV developments

[woodgeek]

My guess is Toyota keeping its powder dry and waiting for better batteries with higher power density will be worth the wait. They already have announced that their first solid state batteries will go in hybrids and that they dont think EV economics will be such that a EV will get an all solid state battery pack although a blend of solid state and conventional may be a possibility.

They have said as much. But they have promised to field solid state batteries so many times and had the reveal dates pass that the idea is a bit comical at this point. And it is not clear how much 'powder' they have to save. They are highly indebted, and much of their assets are in factory and equipment form, and its not clear how valuable those will be in an EV future.

Toyota (and its subsidiaries) will no doubt be deemed too big to fail, and not allowed to fail. Its also not clear that getting in early (as Ford and GM have tried to do) is the best strategy if the first gen products can't sell at a profit. So while many poo-poo Toyota's choice (including me) to not build BEVs at scale at this time as sealing their doom, it seems that they could get in later and still compete with other legacy makers at that point. Bc the other makers have messed up so badly, and lost a lot of money in the process.

Toyota's 'justifications' for this business decision/gamble seem fatuous to me, but I get that decisions need to be sold to shareholders with a story they will deem plausible.

I think the latest gen LFPs are the 'killer app' of battery tech, likely for the next generation or two, that will lead to mass adoption. Unless Toyota really does have a solid state battery up its sleeve.

 

[EbS-P]

I've been a PHEV owner for 10 yrs., first with the Volt Gen 1 and now the Gen 2. Love this car. We've taken it on 1200 mile trips in remote parts of the west without range anxiety, yet 90% of our local driving is on the battery. The 65 mile summer range covers almost all of our local needs. That said, we'll likely be going BEV within the next 2 yrs. The primary drive for change is not the car, but the lack of support by Chevrolet and GM.

I think support/service will become more important. The Dealer model is not going to age well in the coming decades. If you can’t get decent support from GM then I wouldn’t expect anyone else to be in close proximity. Local service is key.

I read some EV fora where many are dismissive of PHEVs. Not so much around here.

Those early/bad EVs were most clearly NOT the Volt. I have a Gen 1 (designed in 2010) and it is sporty and awesome in electric mode, and drives exactly the same (power/acceleration) in hybrid mode. It just gets a little louder.

Toyota took the opposite tack with the Prius PHEV, and the Prius. They (also in the Nissan LEAF Gen 1) made the assumption that the driver needed to be trained to drive like a hypermiler. Lots of feedback for 'good driving' and making it hard to 'drive inefficiently'. If you were a hypermiler by temperment, this was fine. If you weren't ... you avoid buying those cars. The Prius was never a big success in the US, I think primarily because of this design error.

Tesla and GM obviously took the opposite tack, delivering PHEVs and BEV with high and consistent performance. And I think its clear they won.

The reason it took so long to get the current Prime is bc it took that long for Toyota to see their error and reverse. The reason the first RAV4 EV was great is bc it was built in collab with Tesla, so it wasn't handicapped.

All that and gas prices have not stayed high enough for long enough o

 

[begreen]

I think support/service will become more important. The Dealer model is not going to age well in the coming decades. If you can’t get decent support from GM then I wouldn’t expect anyone else to be in close proximity. Local service is key.

All that and gas prices have not stayed high enough for long enough o

Still at $4 or higher here.

We had a 2006 gen 2 Prius. It was a little quirky, but very practical. Had they come out with the Prius V earlier we would have gotten that one. I'm a station wagon guy. The car was economical and super reliable. Cab drivers here loved them. The downside was bland performance and handling.

 

[ABMax24]

They have said as much. But they have promised to field solid state batteries so many times and had the reveal dates pass that the idea is a bit comical at this point. And it is not clear how much 'powder' they have to save. They are highly indebted, and much of their assets are in factory and equipment form, and its not clear how valuable those will be in an EV future.

Toyota (and its subsidiaries) will no doubt be deemed too big to fail, and not allowed to fail. Its also not clear that getting in early (as Ford and GM have tried to do) is the best strategy if the first gen products can't sell at a profit. So while many poo-poo Toyota's choice (including me) to not build BEVs at scale at this time as sealing their doom, it seems that they could get in later and still compete with other legacy makers at that point. Bc the other makers have messed up so badly, and lost a lot of money in the process.

Toyota's 'justifications' for this business decision/gamble seem fatuous to me, but I get that decisions need to be sold to shareholders with a story they will deem plausible.

I think the latest gen LFPs are the 'killer app' of battery tech, likely for the next generation or two, that will lead to mass adoption. Unless Toyota really does have a solid state battery up its sleeve.

I'll have to disagree. Toyota builds a quality product that's practical for most buyers. While their technology is not necessarily cutting edge, it's stilling moving along and advancing. I'd argue their dual motor planetary based hybrid CVT is the most simple, yet reliable on the market for hybrids. Their hybrids have also proven a lot of EV technology to make their transition to BEVs simpler.

Mitsubishi on the other hand jumped in with both feet and created the Outlander PHEV that's a pile of hot garbage. They never included a battery warmer for the hybrid. Mitsubishi is facing a class action lawsuit and our local dealer has some very angry customers in their hands, think those customers are going to switch to an EV anytime soon? Doubt it.

BEVs are still a niche product, and will be adopted more widely by oems when technology and infrastructure arrives to support that.

 

[DBoon]

The downside was bland performance and handling.

I would describe it a little harsher as a completely soul-sucking driving experience.

Toyota builds a quality product that's practical for most buyers.

Agreed. And they have boring styling and are driven primarily by old(er) people. By all accounts, they should appeal to me now, but when my entire adult life has been informed of Toyota as "builders of bland, practical, quality cars that are not very exciting to drive" then you would have to understand why my brand impression of them is going to be slow to change.

Their recent foot-dragging on the BEV transition and comical explanations for it don't help. They are clearly stuck in the past. Maybe they are making big changes that we can't see, but hearing that they will be all into BEVs when there is more demand and when they have good solid-state batteries would be like power companies saying 20 years ago that they'll replace all the coal plants with clean fusion power. Toyota just likes their engines and is slow to change.

 

[woodgeek]

I'll have to disagree. Toyota builds a quality product that's practical for most buyers. While their technology is not necessarily cutting edge, it's stilling moving along and advancing. I'd argue their dual motor planetary based hybrid CVT is the most simple, yet reliable on the market for hybrids. Their hybrids have also proven a lot of EV technology to make their transition to BEVs simpler.

Mitsubishi on the other hand jumped in with both feet and created the Outlander PHEV that's a pile of hot garbage. They never included a battery warmer for the hybrid. Mitsubishi is facing a class action lawsuit and our local dealer has some very angry customers in their hands, think those customers are going to switch to an EV anytime soon? Doubt it.

I think we mostly agree. I am not saying that Toyota doesn't make a quality product. Just saying that that original Prius was a niche product for the US market (while being more successful in other markets).

I am also conceding that waiting for BEV technology maturation may be a better strategy in the long run than blowing a lot of money on poorer performance (and too expensive) early generation BEVs, and then having them fail in the marketplace. Which is what Toyota is saying these days (and which Ford and GM are belatedly arguing).

The flip side of that argument is that it is important to get in early to 'get experience' with building BEVs, things like high power/voltage motors, inverters and contactors, structural battery packs, battery manufacturing, etc. GM has been making that argument for 14 years, crowing about how the Volt and the Bolt (compliance car) would give GM a competitive lead over everyone else when it came time to scale. And yet it clearly did not, with them doing more poorly than Ford, who was a bit late to the game with two products that were decently competitive at launch, and then rapidly became less so.

Still, its kinda hard to say that Toyota is right to wait, and that they are ready to jump to the front because they have mastered HEV tech from more than 20 years ago. Having it both ways...

And yeah, Mitsu is garbage. I have a friend with an Outlander who loves his. Nissan built the LEAF in 2010, and they are bringing up the rear on BEVs.

BEVs are still a niche product, and will be adopted more widely by oems when technology and infrastructure arrives to support that.

Maybe in Alberta, I could believe that, but in 2024 that is not true globally. They are over 10% of the fleet in my HCOL town in PA, and in Cali, and growing fast. I see more Teslas than I can count, and a few Bolts and Rivians on my short commute every day. The Model Y outsold The Toyota Camry last year globally, dethroning it from its very long run as the best selling car model on earth. Global ICE light vehicle production peaked in 2018, while BEV production has been growing fast that whole time. BEVs are over 20% market share in China and EU, the two largest car markets, and the legacy makers are struggling to sell anything ICE or BEV in China these days.

I'm sure if you live in one of the (many) places that BEVs are a rare sight, Toyota waiting seems like a very logical move. And Ford and GM taking it slow might seem logical too. But in reality it is a huge gamble to sit out a rapidly burgeoning product class, as very competitive makers like BYD and Tesla are engaged in a massive innovation and cost reduction push, and building the best selling vehicles on the planet and growing their market share rapidly.

History does not suggest that legacy makers getting in later, and leapfrogging the disruptive companies to success, has a very good track record. I think they are instead making the least bad choice for themselves, when the other choice is to keep fielding tech that is clearly inferior, and then losing out in the marketplace after blowing a lot of cash. They are collectively hoping (IMO) that BEV tech will either stabilize/plateau (giving them time to replicate it), or be replaced by a whole new technology (like solid state) that will provide an entry point. If neither of those materialize (and the existing lithium tech just gets really good and cheap by a series of many small innovations) over the next 5-10 years... the legacy makers bet/wish will not pay off.

 

[woodgeek]

Agreed. And they have boring styling and are driven primarily by old(er) people. By all accounts, they should appeal to me now, but when my entire adult life has been informed of Toyota as "builders of bland, practical, quality cars that are not very exciting to drive" then you would have to understand why my brand impression of them is going to be slow to change.

Their recent foot-dragging on the BEV transition and comical explanations for it don't help. They are clearly stuck in the past. Maybe they are making big changes that we can't see, but hearing that they will be all into BEVs when there is more demand and when they have good solid-state batteries would be like power companies saying 20 years ago that they'll replace all the coal plants with clean fusion power. Toyota just likes their engines and is slow to change.

You said it better than I did. A company can't stand up publicly and announce that they effed up and made a series of costly mistakes. Instead, their choices will be sold as a brilliant tactical strategy. And to make it sound plausible a future technology that will defeat their competition will need to be invented from whole cloth. For years it was 🦄 Hydrogen🦄, And now it is just the solid state battery than they have promised and not delivered about three times already.

I am sure that Toyota makes a nice pickup that sells well in rural areas and as utes in Australia. But around here in PA, I associate them with very old people. Those folks that used to drive Buicks and Olds land yachts everywhere 20 years ago... now their kids are driving (non hybrid) Camry's. When I drive on the weekends on my local two lane, no passing roads, I will often see a long line of cars that I think must be a funeral precession (but they have their lights off). At the front there is ALWAYS a Toyota driver going about 10 mph below the speed limit.

Not all Toyota drivers are 80 years old, but most 80 year old drivers are in Toyota's.

 

[stoveliker]

I don't understand the Toyota bashing here.
Y'all admit they make a quality product. Y'all admit phevs make.sense now.

Maybe the old folks have learned their lesson in choosing reliability and a proven platform over disruptive tech.

Finally, transportation is just that. I may be in the minority here, but everything having to be "not boring" is part of the consumerism, growth mandate philosophy - after all what is boring changes on the whim of social psychology, leading to the next stylish change and resource consumption for no other reason than a coolness factor.
Instead, it would be good if "it serves the needs" would be sufficient. Toyota is precisely that: it serves the needs and does so very reliably.

 

[EbS-P]

I would describe it a little harsher as a completely soul-sucking driving experience.


Agreed. And they have boring styling and are driven primarily by old(er) people. By all accounts, they should appeal to me now, but when my entire adult life has been informed of Toyota as "builders of bland, practical, quality cars that are not very exciting to drive" then you would have to understand why my brand impression of them is going to be slow to change.

Their recent foot-dragging on the BEV transition and comical explanations for it don't help. They are clearly stuck in the past. Maybe they are making big changes that we can't see, but hearing that they will be all into BEVs when there is more demand and when they have good solid-state batteries would be like power companies saying 20 years ago that they'll replace all the coal plants with clean fusion power. Toyota just likes their engines and is slow to change.

Not an old persons car. They have some good ideas left now the focus is no liner being made.

2024 Toyota GR Corolla | Toyota.com

Redefine your boundaries with the track-built, road-ready 2024 Toyota GR Corolla. This turbocharged hatchback has a robust 300-horsepower engine and a GR circuit-tuned suspension for agile handling.

www.toyota.com

They technology exists to make a really good BEV. The issue is can it be profitable? Tesla really nailed
the all markets with the Model Y. Big enough for the US market and still appealing for the EU and China.

I do think hybrids will have certain market but at the same time any automaker without a half decent profitable BEV will have zero chance of competing with Tesla. What will compete against the Model Y? The clock has been ticking for awhile now. Kia is delivering. Rivian is trying but unless they get another huge cash infusion I’m skeptical if they will be around in 5 years. The RS2 looks cool but it’s not the car that will save them IMO.

 

[RockCastile]

When I drive on the weekends on my local two lane, no passing roads, I will often see a long line of cars that I think must be a funeral precession (but they have their lights off). At the front there is ALWAYS a Toyota driver going about 10 mph below the speed limit.

Dude give the Camry a brake, that poor thing's gotta jaunt the old farts around for 400,000 major maintenance free miles before it's allowed out to pasture. Your current lithium will be in its 3rd recycle before that old gal gets where she's going. That's assuming they're still selling gas by then.

 

[woodgeek]

Dude give the Camry a brake, that poor thing's gotta jaunt the old farts around for 400,000 major maintenance free miles before it's allowed out to pasture. Your current lithium will be in its 3rd recycle before that old gal gets where she's going. That's assuming they're still selling gas by then.

Sure. And ofc I only leased my lithium, so I will return it to GM in another 15 mos.

Maybe I'm bitter because the two Toyota's I owned (a 94 Corolla and 2003 Camry) were lemons/junk, always in the shop, thousands in repairs on the engines and exhaust systems. And I was glad to be rid of them.

 

[woodgeek]

I don't understand the Toyota bashing here.
Y'all admit they make a quality product. Y'all admit phevs make.sense now.

Maybe the old folks have learned their lesson in choosing reliability and a proven platform over disruptive tech.

Finally, transportation is just that. I may be in the minority here, but everything having to be "not boring" is part of the consumerism, growth mandate philosophy - after all what is boring changes on the whim of social psychology, leading to the next stylish change and resource consumption for no other reason than a coolness factor.
Instead, it would be good if "it serves the needs" would be sufficient. Toyota is precisely that: it serves the needs and does so very reliably.

Hmmm. Much of the Toyota bashing is because they have been lobbying against BEVs for 20 years. Spending as much on that project as the Oil majors have. While at the same time insisting for most of that time that they were leading the way on electrification, bc Prius HEV from the year 2000, with Nickel batteries.

I get cranked about corporate hypocrisy and misinformation.

The other point is that now that the EV revolution is well underway, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle, and it is clear that Toyota is not leading the way... they are changing their tune. The new tune is 'Ofc BEVs are the future. And we will own that future. But, psst, we'll tell you a secret... BEVs from other makers are still junk and not ready for prime time. When the technology matures a little more (and does so in our R&D facility) then we will blow them all out of the water. In the meantime, buy our gas wagons... they're really reliable.'

And ofc I am aok with them saying whatever they need to make their shareholders not panic (about their rapidly eroding market share in many important markets). And they are free to spin whatever fantasies of future market dominance that their PR folks can come up with.

Doesn't mean I have to believe them now after they've been lying for 20 years. Even if like all the very best lies, they contain a tiny germ of truth.

 

[peakbagger]

BTW, Toyota pickups big and small and Rav 4s are pretty well the defacto transportation in northern NH in winter. Go to most winter businesses before they open up in the morning and that is what you will see in the employee lots. Contractors tend to drive the big fords and chevy trucks with plow mounts up front in case construction is slow. Subarus are also quite popular.

One of the reasons is there are local Toyota, Ford and Chevy dealers. Far fewer Subaru dealers and the closest Tesla Dealer is 100 miles away. Same with VW and given their recent reputation of less than robust reliability, once a car needs to be sent via flatbed to a remote dealer for repairs, it goes up for sale pretty quick.

There is a sprinkling of plug in hybrids around. The local Toyota dealer has had a white EV BZ4X in the showroom for a long time. I think they move it every few weeks so the carpet padding does not form permanent divots. Its a sales tool, folks come into look at it and walk out with a Rav 4 variant.

 

[stoveliker]

Hmmm. Much of the Toyota bashing is because they have been lobbying against BEVs for 20 years. Spending as much on that project as the Oil majors have. While at the same time insisting for most of that time that they were leading the way on electrification, bc Prius HEV from the year 2000, with Nickel batteries.

I get cranked about corporate hypocrisy and misinformation.

The other point is that now that the EV revolution is well underway, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle, and it is clear that Toyota is not leading the way... they are changing their tune. The new tune is 'Ofc BEVs are the future. And we will own that future. But, psst, we'll tell you a secret... BEVs from other makers are still junk and not ready for prime time. When the technology matures a little more (and does so in our R&D facility) then we will blow them all out of the water. In the meantime, buy our gas wagons... they're really reliable.'

And ofc I am aok with them saying whatever they need to make their shareholders not panic (about their rapidly eroding market share in many important markets). And they are free to spin whatever fantasies of future market dominance that their PR folks can come up with.

Doesn't mean I have to believe them now after they've been lying for 20 years. Even if like all the very best lies, they contain a tiny germ of truth.

Methinks that the *majority* of car mfgs that went all-in with BEVs going back to (P)HEVs suggests Toyota may not have been lying but in fact may have been right all along. (For now - I understand the all electric world is eventually going to be the standard and have no objections against that.)

EDIT (not having read yet the post directly below): And regarding lying; they have said exactly what they are doing, contrary to many others (being CEO or otherwise in the field). They have said that the path (for them) to electrification is through hybrids, slow adiabatic change. And yes, they did lead there. At this point others have overtaken them yes.
But their approach is understandable: when one has a quality reputation (barring your two cars, evidently, tho the statistics show they are outliers) to maintain, this is the only way. Imagine that Toyota would have had the many troubles that Tesla has had in cars that have been delivered. It's not criticism to Tesla; they disrupt, are creative, do things differently. But not all has gone smoothly. Toyota can't afford damage to the only aspect where they shine: reliability.

I have the impression that some folks are upset because they railed against an approach for a long time, but now that many others (see US mfgs mentioned above) are going the same route, they have to eat their hats...

That's my $0.02

(Full disclosure: I don't know if I have Toyota stock, I presume so in some mutual funds...)

 

[woodgeek]

Methinks that the *majority* of car mfgs that went all-in with BEVs going back to (P)HEVs suggests Toyota may not have been lying but in fact may have been right all along. (For now - I understand the all electric world is eventually going to be the standard and have no objections against that.)

I think Toyota has a great short term strategy (<5 years), and has a lousy (or even fatal) long term strategy (>5 years).

And I think Ford and GM, after failing badly in 2023, are cozying up to the Toyota story for 'cover', pure and simple. Meanwhile Tesla keeps selling more and more cars, and sales of ICE vehicles keep falling.

When Exxon was making rosy projections of soaring global oil demand until the year 2100, spitting in the face of Climate Doom, they pointed out that their projections were lower than those of the EIA and IEA. And said... 'look, our estimates are actually conservative., so they must be reliable!'

I also think that what all these legacy companies aspire to in the long term, if anything, can be really different than their public stance, which seems to change every couple years. And that the public stance serves primarily to hold onto Mom and Pop investors, and to keep their already lousy stock prices from sinking even lower.

 

[woodgeek]

BTW, Toyota pickups big and small and Rav 4s are pretty well the defacto transportation in northern NH in winter. Go to most winter businesses before they open up in the morning and that is what you will see in the employee lots. Contractors tend to drive the big fords and chevy trucks with plow mounts up front in case construction is slow. Subarus are also quite popular.

One of the reasons is there are local Toyota, Ford and Chevy dealers. Far fewer Subaru dealers and the closest Tesla Dealer is 100 miles away. Same with VW and given their recent reputation of less than robust reliability, once a car needs to be sent via flatbed to a remote dealer for repairs, it goes up for sale pretty quick.

There is a sprinkling of plug in hybrids around. The local Toyota dealer has had a white EV BZ4X in the showroom for a long time. I think they move it every few weeks so the carpet padding does not form permanent divots. Its a sales tool, folks come into look at it and walk out with a Rav 4 variant.

How's Volvo doing up there? They are all made in southern China now by Geely. Are they still selling, and are there any dealerships?

 

[woodgeek]

EDIT (not having read yet the post directly below): And regarding lying; they have said exactly what they are doing, contrary to many others (being CEO or otherwise in the field). They have said that the path (for them) to electrification is through hybrids, slow adiabatic change. And yes, they did lead there. At this point others have overtaken them yes.
But their approach is understandable: when one has a quality reputation (barring your two cars, evidently, tho the statistics show they are outliers) to maintain, this is the only way. Imagine that Toyota would have had the many troubles that Tesla has had in cars that have been delivered. It's not criticism to Tesla; they disrupt, are creative, do things differently. But not all has gone smoothly. Toyota can't afford damage to the only aspect where they shine: reliability.

I have the impression that some folks are upset because they railed against an approach for a long time, but now that many others (see US mfgs mentioned above) are going the same route, they have to eat their hats...

That's my $0.02

(Full disclosure: I don't know if I have Toyota stock, I presume so in some mutual funds...)

We need to check the memory hole. Their lobbying 10-15 years ago was that lithium was an unsafe fire hazard, and that lithium powered vehicles would never be safe or widespread. And then they were very late adopters to using lithium in their Prius HEVs, even after the other makers switched to it bc it was lighter and lower cost (and not bursting into flames). THIS, for example, is why Toyota was a late adopter to PHEVs, because those were non-competitive using Nickel batteries. And corporate policy favored bashing lithium over selling lithium, until there were millions of perfectly safe lithium vehicles in service.

I'm happy to eat a hat, but it doesn't seem to be necessary. Some legacy maker EV sales are down, other dominant brand EV sales are still up. Those promised PHEVs from the legacies are not yet for sale at scale. They're just newer vaporware for the time being to replace their previous BEV vaporware.

The legacy makers are currently having a little pity party, and in a couple years all this will be down the memory hole too as they launch their NEXT generation of BEVs to great PR fanfare. And we will see how those vehicles do. I wish them well. I really hope they have crash programs behind the scenes to tear down the latest EVs and to replicate them by 2028. But if they are doing that, do not expect to hear about it from PR.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Toyota is in business to make money. I have no doubt they will continue to do this. Contrary to some of the views expressed here, I’m sure they know their manufacturing capabilities and the technology available to them better than we do. I bet they see something they don’t like with the current situation. The world doesn’t need another Chevy Vega.

I’m going to trust Toyota is making the best decision for their company with the information available to them.

Speculation never worked for me as an investment strategy.

 

[woodgeek]

When big companies turn to big money misinformation, it is usually a sign that their long term projections are simply not as great as their current ones, and they are trying to maximize their short term returns by forestalling the inevitable.

See Tobacco, Coal, Oil, and (it appears) Toyota.

 

[peakbagger]

How's Volvo doing up there? They are all made in southern China now by Geely. Are they still selling, and are there any dealerships?

No dealerships nearby, there is a small devoted group that sticks with them and a couple of independent shops that buy newer model at auction and resell and even they seem to hae shifted to Mercedes. They dont make much money on the resale but pretty well guarantee future revenue for maintenance and repairs as no other local mechanic will touch them.

 

[stoveliker]

When big companies turn to big money misinformation, it is usually a sign that their long term projections are simply not as great as their current ones, and they are trying to maximize their short term returns by forestalling the inevitable.

See Tobacco, Coal, Oil, and (it appears) Toyota.

Or simply incorrect expectations that made them go the slow, quality route that they, and their customers, are accustomed to.

I do note that the many hybrids they have sold, *very early on* have kept a TON of CO2 out of the atmosphere more than would have happened if all had waited for BEVs to become viable (as they are now).

But apparently you know what was in their heads.

 

[EbS-P]

Toyota is some real fine company making this list…

Corporate Climate Policy Footprint

An independent think tank producing data-driven analysis on how business and finance are impacting the climate crisis

influencemap.org

 

[stoveliker]

That is interesting indeed.
For one the use of the word "blocking (climate policy action)" indicates an agenda too. They don't block, they argue against some things. (Which, I agree is bad.)
Second, I seem to remember that Toyota has always beaten CAFE standards in the models they sold here? Am I wrong?

 

[woodgeek]

That is interesting indeed.
For one the use of the word "blocking (climate policy action)" indicates an agenda too. They don't block, they argue against some things. (Which, I agree is bad.)
Second, I seem to remember that Toyota has always beaten CAFE standards in the models they sold here? Am I wrong?

But apparently you know what was in their heads.

I don't know what is in their heads. I have just been reading their (changing, hypocritical and inconsistent) PR for the last 10+ years, them repeatedly being listed as one of the largest donors to dark money groups working against progress on climate change, and watching their anti-BEV advertisements. @begreen found some anti-BEV PR material they sent to school children in Japan not that long ago.

Does the Prius reduce emissions? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that Toyota are 'black hats' on the climate front, paying more over the years to stop BEV progess than any other car maker.

I couldn't find any info on whether Toyota buys emission credits (not sure its public info), but they famously came out this year that they would prefer to pay credits rather than build BEVs. Because it would be cheaper than losing money on BEVs. While paying lobbyists in the US to try to roll back the regs that would force them to buy credits.

So irrespective of what is happening in the EV market and the quality of their cars, I am not going to believe anything they tell me.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

“but they famously came out this year that they would prefer to pay credits rather than build BEVs. Because it would be cheaper than losing money on BEVs“

What if they’re right?