Fear of Heatilator

[arcticranger]

i bought a 70s kit home in 2000 and recently had the chimney relined. the guy told me my fireplace was a Heatilator. i had no idea. i've had an old woodstove in there forever, now venting via a new chimney liner, but today with winter coming i decided to check out whether the Heatilator with its fancy vents is doing anything at all.

the main back metal wall is rusted but in place, however its roof is rotted away completely. a second metal shield behind the first was so rusted i just vacuumed the entire thing out today via the lower ducts. the upper ducts are bad too. it appears unsalvageable.

i've seen vids of people tearing these out and they've torn apart their entire fireplace. i've also found many articles saying how dangerous it is to put any woodstove into a Heatilator, and given the condition of mine i do not know if the radiant heat from my woodstove is safely contained.

argh!

anyway i wonder if anyone here has either used an insert with a Heatilator or converted one back to a regular masonry fireplace? i suppose i could just put a woodstove elsewhere in the room but this is a large white fireplace that will look ridiculous sitting unused. i keep hearing this scenario:

buyer: " oh look a cool retro fireplace!"
me: "er..um.."

sorry my first post was so long, i found a monster in my wall! any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[bholler]

Post some pics so we can be sure of what you are talking about. If it is a heatform metal firebox in a masonry chimney you can either install an insert with a liner. Or cut out the metal box and build a masonry box in there to use as an open fireplace. But that will give you little to no useable heat.

 

[arcticranger]

Post some pics so we can be sure of what you are talking about. If it is a heatform metal firebox in a masonry chimney you can either install an insert with a liner. Or cut out the metal box and build a masonry box in there to use as an open fireplace. But that will give you little to no useable heat.

Forgot the pics. Front view, rusted top of back shield, view into a top vent and new liner coming out of woodstove. Thanks.

 

[arcticranger]

Forgot the pics. Front view, rusted top of back shield, view into a top vent and new liner coming out of woodstove. Thanks.

well, sorry, i realize those pics don't help much. i'll probably need to remove the woodstove to answer your question.

i do know from the roof my chimney has 2 square, terra-cotta colored tile flues, the one serving the Heatilator is 2x as wide. both have new caps and steel liners. the top of my woodstove is connected to a steel collar which is connected to the liner going up the larger flue.

i have attached 4 more pics

1) collar-liner connection
2) coller-woodstove connection.
3) U-like cut in the back wall
4) cavernous space behind back wall, big metal dome with lots of broken area and patches of old insulation. there's one big flat area sloping upward which has a layer of yellow insulation covering it. it's a mess back there.

i do see some brick behind the metal walls in fireplace but i can't yet say if there are full masonry walls there or not.

i think i may have the insert-liner setup you mentioned without knowing i have the masonry to keep it safe.

news flash: previous owner tells me there was a damper way up high in the fireplace but it crumbled and fell down the first time he touched it. for what it's worth.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Why is there a prominent outline of soot at vents?
Was this soot/discoloration condition existing or is it new since the installation/purchase?

 

[arcticranger]

Why is there a prominent outline of soot at vents?
Was this soot/discoloration condition existing or is it new since the installation/purchase?

i'm not sure. i know owner #2 had a woodstove in there with no collar or liner, he just counted on airflow to vent to the flue way above. i imagine that would let soot go everywhere including the vents.

why do you ask?

 

[VirginiaIron]

I would think those wall vents are for convection or induced/forced air from and to the living space, pres u mably across some convertor/panel in the heatilator that is isolated from the solid fuel heat source. The discoloration at the grills could indicate a failure of the barrier between those two systems and the grills/living space.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Best bet is to have that system inspected by a QUALIFIED, licensed individual.

 

[Squisher]

Yes, get a qualified sweep to check it all over. No one online is going to be able to say 'sure that's safe, good to go'. Seeing the condition of the heatilator heatform definetly brings into question the condition of the entire chimney.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. The old Heatilator is shot. That probably explains the smoke stain by the upper grille. Looking at the pictures I wonder if the liner was installed properly. This will take a trained pro to inspect. The liner looks uninsulated. Questions that come up: Is there a tile liner in the chimney? Was the chimney thoroughly cleaned before it was put in?

 

[VirginiaIron]

Also, the uninsulated collar appears to have stage 3 creosote adhered to portions of the exterior surface. Probably should stop using it untill this installation is determined a safe install and it operates properly.

 

[arcticranger]

Yes, get a qualified sweep to check it all over. No one online is going to be able to say 'sure that's safe, good to go'. Seeing the condition of the heatilator heatform definetly brings into question the condition of the entire chimney.

yes, hence the original question!

 

[Squisher]

Well to answer your original question. Yes my insert is installed in a old heatilator metal heat form in a masonry construction fireplace/chimney. Parts of it I cut out to fit a full insulated liner top to bottom.

When your liner was installed was the chimney, smoke chamber, and smoke shelf area(basically the whole fireplace/chimney top to bottom) thoroughly cleaned beforehand? Were the requirements or benefits of a insulated liner discussed at all prior to install? Was a inspection report done/issued with the installation?

 

[arcticranger]

Well to answer your original question. Yes my insert is installed in a old heatilator metal heat form in a masonry construction fireplace/chimney. Parts of it I cut out to fit a full insulated liner top to bottom.

When your liner was installed was the chimney, smoke chamber, and smoke shelf area(basically the whole fireplace/chimney top to bottom) thoroughly cleaned beforehand? Were the requirements or benefits of a insulated liner discussed at all prior to install? Was a inspection report done/issued with the installation?

i only know he cleaned and lined the 2 flues in my one chimney. and he told me i had a Heatilator which i'd never heard of. he stays in touch so i can re-ask these questions. who knows how honest he will be.

assuming my system is a heatform, is there a masonry or brick wall behind my rusted metal walls, i mean the left, right and back sides. did you leave those in place and just cut out the upper parts that were in the way of your insulated liner?

i'm pretty nervous about what's behind those remaining steel walls and my gut says cut em out and find out for sure.

i am glad i ran into someone who has actually done this, not to mention all the other good advice. i do expect it will be hard to find someone who has revised one of these beasts either for an insert or just 'pretty' fireplace.

 

[Squisher]

You'll find tons of inserts have been installed into metal heat form masonry chimneys. IMO, standard installation is to remove no more than nescessary.

Is this an interior(completely enclosed within the house) or exterior(backside is exposed to the outdoors on the wall it's on) chimney?

 

[arcticranger]

You'll find tons of inserts have been installed into metal heat form masonry chimneys. IMO, standard installation is to remove no more than nescessary.

Is this an interior(completely enclosed within the house) or exterior(backside is exposed to the outdoors on the wall it's on) chimney?

outside cinder block, it is 6' wide by 2' deep. the dark area on left is shadow and that is an ash door at bottom. brick extends into house only 3" not including hearth.

 

[Squisher]

Well exterior chimney IMO is safer if things are rotted right out. I'm in Canada so things could be different down there and I'm sure you may get other opinions on this too. But as I understand it, inserts going into a masonry fireplace opening are only certified to do so in one that is up to code. Sooooooo........yours looks rough from here.

I would question the liner installer as to how/what was cleaned and if the condition of the clay liner (if there is one)was noted at all. a insulated liner is always a better choice, espescially for an exterior chimney.

 

[arcticranger]

Well exterior chimney IMO is safer if things are rotted right out. I'm in Canada so things could be different down there and I'm sure you may get other opinions on this too. But as I understand it, inserts going into a masonry fireplace opening are only certified to do so in one that is up to code. Sooooooo........yours looks rough from here.

I would question the liner installer as to how/what was cleaned and if the condition of the clay liner (if there is one)was noted at all. a insulated liner is always a better choice, espescially for an exterior chimney.

interesting wrinkle now, i placed an advert and heard back from a older guy 63 who knew everything about the HL and claims to have installed hundreds. he said it is possible to retrofit an entire new HL unit including the upper dome, damper, etc, and that he knows where to get these parts. i'm meeting him this week to discuss all options. on the subject of removal he said he would not destroy the brick facing it is "gold". i thought it was cheaply painted white brick and he said it is some special and coveted s**t.

woohoo!!

 

[bholler]

interesting wrinkle now, i placed an advert and heard back from a older guy 63 who knew everything about the HL and claims to have installed hundreds. he said it is possible to retrofit an entire new HL unit including the upper dome, damper, etc, and that he knows where to get these parts. i'm meeting him this week to discuss all options. on the subject of removal he said he would not destroy the brick facing it is "gold". i thought it was cheaply painted white brick and he said it is some special and coveted s**t.

woohoo!!

Like I said before we remove the metal and rebuild with masonry all the time without removing the face. But honestly it will cost allot of money and make no heat. You already have a good liner. I would pull it out insulate clean the chimney and reinstall it. I would install a block off plate and insulate behind the insert to.

 

[arcticranger]

Like I said before we remove the metal and rebuild with masonry all the time without removing the face. But honestly it will cost allot of money and make no heat. You already have a good liner. I would pull it out insulate clean the chimney and reinstall it. I would install a block off plate and insulate behind the insert to.

sorry to make you repeat but do you mean 'cutting out the metal box and building a masonry box in there to use as an open fireplace' is too expensive and gives no heat? if so, why do people do it?

 

[bholler]

sorry to make you repeat but do you mean 'cutting out the metal box and building a masonry box in there to use as an open fireplace' is too expensive and gives no heat? if so, why do people do it?

Well I don't know about to expensive but it takes allot of labor and 400 to 600 in materials. The reason people do it is because they like the look and ambiance of an open fireplace. But even the best fireplaces operated perfectly will only reach at most 20% efficiency while wood stoves are in the 70 and 80% range. And honestly most open fireplaces end up being a net loss in heat for the home. They just suck so much air out of the house they can't make up for it with radiant heat. So if you want heat keep the liner and stove. If you want ambiance rebuild the open fireplace.

 

[arcticranger]

Well I don't know about to expensive but it takes allot of labor and 400 to 600 in materials. The reason people do it is because they like the look and ambiance of an open fireplace. But even the best fireplaces operated perfectly will only reach at most 20% efficiency while wood stoves are in the 70 and 80% range. And honestly most open fireplaces end up being a net loss in heat for the home. They just suck so much air out of the house they can't make up for it with radiant heat. So if you want heat keep the liner and stove. If you want ambiance rebuild the open fireplace.

good info. i can see where people want a traditional fireplace but i get plenty of ambiance with the stove. that guy who contacted me also said a zero-clearance insert was an option, i suppose i could do that without removing the entire HL and destroying the brick facing. i do not want a new HL.

 

[bholler]

good info. i can see where people want a traditional fireplace but i get plenty of ambiance with the stove. that guy who contacted me also said a zero-clearance insert was an option, i suppose i could do that without removing the entire HL and destroying the brick facing. i do not want a new HL.

You don't need anything zero clearance you have a masonry structure you can put any insert in there that will fit. You also have a good heavy wall liner. You just need things inspected and probably insulation on the liner. And a plate to close off the opening. You don't have to remove anything more than what has already been cut out and there is no reason at all to pull the face down regardless of what you want to do. The only thing that would require that is if you were putting in a new metal box for an open fireplace