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Finally installing a liner on my Buck insert. More progress. Fire again WOOHOO!! New pics

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by WoodpileOCD, Nov 30, 2011.

  1. WoodpileOCD

    WoodpileOCD Minister of Fire

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    Yea, I'm familiar with the 'point of diminishing returns' been there before. Trying to ward off my worst nightmare which is the stories I've read here about perlite little by little finding any opening and sifting down. One post talked about it pretty much emptying his flue. I realize that whoever it was probably didn't take the precautions I am but I just don't want to have to do this again. It would really tick me off if for some reason I did and and I knew it was because I didn't do a couple hours more work on it.

    I'll not know how thick it will be on the bottom for sure but I have a strong flashlight and I can clearly see the Roxul stuffed up in there so I'll be able to tell if I get that covered or not. You're absolutely right though, OVERKILL.

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  2. woodmiser

    woodmiser New Member

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    The last thing you want is your mixture ending up doing what you don't want... crumbling and sifting through over time. Could be worse than the perlite since it's heavier grains. I think between the stuffed roxul, the block off plate and a good application of sealant, you're not gonna have any seepage issues. Why didn't you go with an insulated liner instead?
  3. bluedogz

    bluedogz Minister of Fire

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    That's my job... he just had to be different.
  4. WoodpileOCD

    WoodpileOCD Minister of Fire

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    Moving right along now. I got the stove back in and the pipe connected. I ended up having to cut the stove connector in two places to make a little tuck so it would fit into the hole in the stove. Even before I had it hooked to the liner I tried to get it in the opening and it wouldn't go. It had a couple little weld beads on the inside of the stove opening so I filed them down smooth but it still wouldn't go. Used a dremel tool to slice it in two places about an inch and it created just a bit of overlap and fit in. I hated to do that but wasn't sure what else I could do. It was just too big by a mm or so.

    Boy am I glad I got the 45 adapter rather than the straight one because I never would have gotten it lined up without the 45. After I posted on another thread about an install being delayed because of rain and I ended up going up on my roof in the rain to cut the liner and put the cap on. I haven't done the insulation yet but didn't want to make multiple trips up and down to do that so I put it on hold for the moment. Haven't sealed the top or anything, just set it on the terra cotta and screwed it down tight. Having second thoughts on my insulation plans thanks to woodmiser so more on that later.

    I sealed around the stove connector with a bunch of high temp stove caulk and painted everything black. I had already painted the back and side walls black because I'm going to run it without the surround. I like the way it came out and it almost looks like a surround from across the room. I'm convinced I will get a lot more heat if I don't block it in with the surround.

    Fire tonight .... I'ts been a week and I'm starting to get FWT's (fire withdrawal tremors) :coolcheese:

    Attached Files:

  5. WoodpileOCD

    WoodpileOCD Minister of Fire

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    Burned a fire tonight and OMG what a difference.
    Conditions: 60 degrees and rainy out so not the best conditions to get the best draft.
    Load: Cold start with 1/4 Super Cedar (first time using) some very small kindling (1/4" strips I cut from scrap 1x lumber), 4 kindling pieces and 3 medium splits (pine and poplar).
    Lit the Super Cedar and let it get started with the door cracked.

    Observations. Even on a night like this the draft was phenominal compared to what I was used to with this stove. I could actually feel the door being pulled closed fairly forcefully. The air wash is MUCH stronger as I can now see small sparks being swept down past the glass.
    I was able to close the door in very short order and use the air controls as they were intended. I can see much more control with the air controls than before.

    With this small load the cat was at 1000 in about 30 min and in an hour it was cruising at 1500 and the stove thermometer was at 450-500 which is about as hot as I've seen it as the thermometer sits on the outer shell with forced air between it and the firebox. 4 hours later the cat was still at 500 and the stove still putting out good heat. 4 hours on 3 med splits and some kindling from a cold start. Wow... love this stove, especially now that I have it drafting properly. No telling what the draft will be like on a really cold clear night. Liable to suck the glass out..

    No insulation yet but thats coming. Here are some pics of the fire and the final install from the living room view.

    Attached Files:

  6. bogydave

    bogydave Minister of Fire

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    Just a beautiful fire inside there :)

    You're gonna run yourself out into the rain! It's getting warm just from the picture here :lol:
    Just love success stories.
    Looks like enough wood for a few days, let it dry out some, then finish up. You earned a break :)

    Great job & progress pics
  7. WoodpileOCD

    WoodpileOCD Minister of Fire

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    Yea, it heated up pretty fast but the temp is falling fast and it's easier to keep the house warm than to get it that way.. Supposed to go to 30 tonight. I know, I know, its tee shirt weather for you boys up there in the great northwest.
  8. bogydave

    bogydave Minister of Fire

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    No. No "T" shirts here.
    About same here, mid to high 20s days & teen nights. More normal for my location now. The sub zero is north & central AK "norm". We had an unusual cold for a few weeks but back to normal now.
    30's mean you may get some snow.
    I saw the weather for NC, YUK! if you're on the Western side, 20s & snow. Hopefully it melts.

    Quit a "tune up" project. Sounds like the got the air/fuel mixture dialed in.
    Perfect timing :)
    Stay warm.
  9. Mr A

    Mr A Minister of Fire

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    Good work. Well explained. Now, once you put the insert into the fireplace, i am still wondering how to attach the flex liner to the stove adapter? Looks you have 3-5 inches above your insert. My opening is but 2 inches above my insert. Meets minimums called for by manufacturer, but how do i get in there and fit it together? I guess I will have to cut out some of the top front of the opening also, as well as some of the smoke shelf? thank you.
  10. pen

    pen There are some who call me...mod. Staff Member

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    Outstanding!

    pen
  11. bluedogz

    bluedogz Minister of Fire

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    FYI, Woodpile, your thread helped resolve a lot of my own doubts (and Mrs. Blue's) about doing my own chimney (and thus saving like $1500.) Please accept my thanks and compliments on your livingroom.

    Next year I do the same job on the OTHER chimney... hopefully for an insert....
  12. coltfever

    coltfever Member

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    Great job woodpile. I sure like the looks of what you have there. Nice to set back and enjoy it all for a while now. Whats really nice that you were able to do it all yourself. This site has so much helpful info. Your Buck 91 looks great. Its kinda hard to see but did you paint the fireplace firebrick black ? Sure looks nice.
  13. WoodpileOCD

    WoodpileOCD Minister of Fire

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    Thanks coltfever. Yea, I just wirebrushed the firebrick in the back and sides a little bit and used stove paint to spray paint it. It was so yuckey looking to begin with. I knew I wanted to go w/o the surrround and I've seen other pictures of the same type of install and it just looked kind of nasty looking into the fireplace with the old brick. We'll see how the paint holds up but it'll be a simple job to reach in and respray it if need be. My wife and middle daughter both like it. Said it looked 'homier' and that the surround looked too 'industrial'. The surround was just plain old black sheet metal with a gold trim around it. Not much as far as decor goes.

    Mr A. I feel you dilemma about the lack of space to get your arms in there. Here is a link to the only solution I have seen on that particular issue. http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/ffdoweltrick.htm I had plenty of room above mine but I'm sure there are plenty of installs with very little top clearance. I would start a separate thread asking about that and how others have handled it and you should get more help.

    Bluedogz, I have been wanting to do this since I joined this site and realized that just shoving it in there with an 10" pipe connected wasn't the way 'everyone' did it especially since the Buck manual shows that as one option. I had a lot of trepidation about doing it myself but just like you, seeing other peoples threads on their experiences made me realize that it was a completely doable project. Decided to document it as best I could so I could pass along the experience to other coming in behind me. Thats the great thing about this site. Everyone comes in (or most everyone) with the same questions and ignorance that I had. Seems like there are primarily two types of new members. Those who are completely new to woodburning and those who's only experience has been the smoke dragons of yore.

    Anyway, glad to pass along the experience and confidence gained to all who follow.
  14. _CY_

    _CY_ Burning Hunk

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    same problem installing a Buck 91 ... lack of draft ... just would not burn right. could barely get it up to 1,000f at cat. did get 91 up to 1,500f for one night, but was never able to duplicate again.

    was thinking problem was due to cat needing replaced. but after talking to Buck technical ... problems are related to not having a proper draft, which can only be fixed by installing a inner liner at least 5ft high. dead giveaway problems was related to draft was... 91 would immediately shut down when door was closed. this was with all three fresh air intakes wide open. inside hot shot opening inside bottom/center was clear.

    symptoms of a lack of draft on Buck 91 ... when door was opened, fire started roaring again. then shut down when door was closed. fire would barely burn when damper was closed exactly like cat was clogged. dropped cat holder assembly, gently blew off dust. making sure cat was completely clear. cat was intact and in good condition.

    my fireplace/chimney is massive ... 19ft from top to bottom rock. had zero draft problems with current JUCA insert. which put out at least double the heat Buck 91 does. but it's a wood hog .. 4-5 cords per season.

    Buck 91 should cut wood consumption by 1/2 or less. base on a few short burns... a small handfull of dry oak would burn for 10-12 hours. problem is damper is 4in x 36in wide... an 8in duct has to pass through... already located stainless steel 8in duct, but would need to construct a custom reduction duct to pass through existing damper. what a PITA!

    re-installed JUCA back into fireplace and she's cranking away with zero fuss.... takes all of 5 minutes to install JUCA back into fireplace. what a work horse, but what a wood hog!

    sure temped to covert JUCA into an airtight with secondary burn... with a 12 cubic feet fire box ... with secondary burn tubes installed... efficiency should jump.
  15. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Put a proper liner in the chimney. The Buck will work way better, like it is meant to. You will think it's a whole nother stove. And yes, fuels consumption will improve dramatically.
  16. _CY_

    _CY_ Burning Hunk

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    would love to except it would involve destroying my chimney by enlarging hole big enough to fit an 8in duct.
    alternative would be to custom fabricate a reduction duct adapter. from 8in diameter to 4in x 15in would give equivalent flow.

    unfortunately no simple solution ...
  17. Woody Stover

    Woody Stover Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, that's why I was wondering about your chimney setup. The chimney is the engine of the system. If you try to operate the 91 with a slammer install in a fireplace (no chimney pipe up to the clay liner,) it's hard to enough draft. But for optimum performance, don't just run a pipe up to the liner (unless your clay liner is pretty small,) but rather go all the way to the top with an 8" liner.
    Are you saying that your chimney pipe has to go through a damper, or is the clay liner too small? At my BIL's, I had to cut away part of the damper frame to get the 6" rigid liner through. I used an angle grinder with a cutting disc. I put a fan in the window blowing in to take the dust up the chimney. For an 8" pipe you might have to get a piece of rectangle or ovalized flex liner so that you don't have to cut away as much of the damper frame/chimney brick to get through. Or you might be able to ovalize a section of rigid liner. You might want to talk to a chimney supply online dealer to find out how much the flex or rigid can be ovalized by you at home before you install it.
    You should start a new thread to get more response from the experts here that have done it all before. ==c Or you might be able to find useful info with the search function; It's pretty good on this site.
    When it's set up right, the 91 will toss some heat...
  18. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Explain please. Is 4" x 15" the damper restriction or is that the ID of the entire chimney? Is this chimney tile lined or raw masonry? Earlier you mentioned a 4" x 36" damper, so I is confused. If the issue is just the damper, but the throat of the chimney is large, remove the damper or cut a 9" notch in it. This is done all the time.
  19. Woody Stover

    Woody Stover Minister of Fire

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    Seems like the chimney would be pretty big then, no? Is that an odd damper size? The few I've seen were more like 6x24", IIRC.
  20. weatherguy

    weatherguy Minister of Fire

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    Had to cut mine away to get my liner in, if need be a mason could fix it in the future if its ever converted back to a working fireplace.
  21. mellow

    mellow Resident Stove Connoisseur

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    Woody Stover likes this.
  22. _CY_

    _CY_ Burning Hunk

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    No way I would even try to burn green wood in a Buck 91 with a cat? some folks are saying oak seasoned 2 years is preferred ... been burning wood for about 7 seasons, lots of seasoned wood on hand.

    we are having a record late cold spell in Tulsa, OK .. it's is a record breaking 33f outside right now for April 25. freezing temps this late is very_unusual!

    reinstalled JUCA back into fireplace a few days back .. swap took all of 15 minutes...reason for removing Buck 91 is a lack of draft. 91 would not run consistent. I'd get performance from running 1,500f to barely getting up to 600f ... and struggling to do that. when door was opened, fire would get roaring again ... then quickly snuffed out when door was closed. a classical lack of draft according to tech guy at Buck. He's also telling me my Cat is still good.

    my fireplace is so huge what little hot air generated is getting lost in the chimney stack. which is19ft top to base. measured outside next to exterior ash dump. have reached conclusion Buck 91 will not operate properly in my fireplace without a full inner liner. got an 8in stainless continuous flex liner already located, but it will not pass through my damper without destroying part of my chimney. a reducer duct has to be custom fabbed going from 8in round to 4in x 16in, then back to 8in round.

    JUCA is down to a good bed of coals right now. heat output/air flow is at least double in JUCA vs Buck 91 .. but JUCA sure is a wood hog compared to Buck 91.
    after fire got going good and hot ... yes I tossed in a couple of 11in diameter green (3 weeks old) oak rounds for an all night burn.

    tossed enough wood in JUCA last night that would run 91 for several days.... strangely enough been thinking of modifying JUCA with secondary burn and turning into an airtight and keeping JUCA. a second blower would need to be installed to handle the extra heat generated by burning smoke. with a 12 cubic feet firebox .. good possibility of getting 30+ hour burntimes.

    keep JUCA and modify to secondary burn or construct an 8in round to 4x16in duct reducer and keep Buck 91 ... what to do?

    [​IMG]
  23. _CY_

    _CY_ Burning Hunk

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    damper opening measures 4in x 36in ... restriction is limited to damper, rest of chimney is HUGE. if I removed damper door, opening would increase to 5in x 36in.

    the 4in x 15in is reducer internal dimension to equal flow from 8in diameter duct. I'd probably go 4in x 16in just to be safe. they make a duct reducer that goes from 8in round into a rectangle to fit an air duct. but that's made out of galvanize steel. need to find out if a stainless version is available.

    unfortunately damper is solid 1/4in steel plate and an integral part of chimney. the only way to enlarge is to remove 1/4in steel plate which goes entire way around throat. this would destroy chimney, which I cannot do.
  24. _CY_

    _CY_ Burning Hunk

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    thanks for the suggestion ... will have to see if I can locate 8in rectangle or oval stainless flex liner
  25. Woody Stover

    Woody Stover Minister of Fire

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    Why don't you want to "destroy the chimney?" At my BIL's, I notched the damper frame to get the 6" liner through. Like bg says, it is done all the time. If the damper frame is indeed 1/4" steel, you could fab another piece of 1/4", re-construct the frame and weld it on to the remaining original frame later, if you want to restore the original damper setup.
    On the other hand, if you want to cut, haul, stack, and bring to the stove three times as much wood, and have to try to clean a masonry chimney instead of just running an 8" brush down a liner, go with the Juca. ==c

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