Firewood scammers?

[cron]

Anyone run into issues with folks selling "seasoned" firewood, only to find that it is essentially green wood?

I just had an unpleasant experience with an attempted delivery in southern NH. It's mid winter so I was willing to pay top dollar ($400 + delivery fee) for a cord of seasoned hardwood. I met the fellow at his truck as asked if I could grab a few logs for a moisture reading. He was immediately defensive, says "I've never seen anyone do that", which I thought was a bit odd. I took 2 pieces, split them, and took multiple readings with General MMD4E along the grain near the middle of the splits. All readings come back between 25-30%. He swears that they have been seasoned for at least a year. Then he says that the state requires 25% or less, to which I tell him that I'm not putting anything in my stove that's not < 20%. For some background, when I spoke to him last week he assured me everything he had was less than 16%. So, I calmly told him I wouldn't be purchasing the wood. He didn't put up much of an argument, but he had some choice words before tearing out of my driveway, followed by some passive aggressive text messaging.

Is it really uncommon for folks to take a moisture reading? Any recommendations how to avoid this sort of issue in the future? Am I a prick for not wanting to be ripped off?

 

[peakbagger]

Pretty simple, you called his bluff and he didnt like it. Plenty of other folks would have trusted him and not done the test and would be wondering why the wood was not burning. I am unaware of any state regulation regarding firewood moisture content. The only regulation I am aware of is the definition of a cord and that all wood will be sold by the cord. Therefore, my guess is he was making up regulations to cover his lie.

IMHO, 90% of the so called seasoned firewood for sale in NH is not fully seasoned. The business model just does not support it. Cut today, stack it proper, then wait one to two years to sell? There are good firewood sellers but they do not advertise as they will sell ever bit to long term customers. You can try asking around but most folks just end up seasoning their own. and get a couple of years ahead

 

[stoveliker]

You did well. While I don't know how often a "16%" promise is made, it is quite common to sell something that's too wet as "seasoned".

Your text was respectful (possibly with the exception of that last sentence), and to the point. Indeed, measuring that you are sold what they tell you is being sold is perfectly normal.

The only thing I would suggest (lest it becomes a "you said" - "I didn't" argument) is to have that 16% in writing (txt msg) so you can shove it in his face - politely so, of course.

Good job for being diligent, exposing fraudulent sales practices, and burning dry wood.

The ultimate solution is to buy or get green wood (cheaper), stack it in your yard for two years and keep track of its moisture. That way you're sure you are using dry wood. (I understand that in the first two years, you'll have to resort to buying like you do now.)

 

[bigealta]

If he told you 16% and it's not even close, then Yup Later Dude. People get belligerent when they know they are wrong and get busted. That's how you know for sure he's BS.

 

[Sawset]

Weather folks present their forecasts 3 different ways - data/graphs, pictures, or words. I prefer data. If he said 16%, and after checking it's not, then what's up. Yay or nay.

 

[Rickb]

i assume any wood i buy is 30%..... no matter what they say. I assume anything I buy is going to be stacked in my stacks 2+ years.

That said I only pay 160$ - 200$ per cord.

 

[cron]

i assume any wood i buy is 30%..... no matter what they say. I assume anything I buy is going to be stacked in my stacks 2+ years.

That said I only pay 160$ - 200$ per cord.

Honestly, if that’s what he advertised and had given me greenwood price, I would have gladly bought it.

 

[hickoryhoarder]

The norm around here (south central Indiana): "seasoned" generally means it's been stacked a while. Maybe 3 months, maybe 6 months, more likely 3. They didn't just cut it last week.

I have never bought firewood that's been fully seasoned, which for red oak and white oak (my favorites) would mean 30 months or so. Everything I've ever bought has a fresh cut look, though it could have been cut 10 weeks ago. Never gray.

Bigger operations may sell kiln dried wood, maybe delivered in a giant bag. But those are near the big city, 50 miles north of us. Even those don't cost $400/ cord around here.

What you did was fine, especially because he said 16%, but you'd probably be the first to talk moisture percentage to a guy unloading a truck around here. These guys are making maybe $5/hour from their labor. There's no way they could have an acre of stacks, and keep track of that wood for a year or two. I keep three years supply on hand; only about 20% of it is stuff I scrounged. I buy in 2022 for 2024, unless it's stuff like red maple or black cherry.

It is hard to keep going back to the same firewood seller, because it pays so little. So they quit. It's a little side business for everybody I buy from, probably under 10% of their income. If you could always buy from the same people, you'd have an understanding about how long it's been stacked. Like Rickb's situation, these guys are charging $170-210 a cord.

I think there are more problems with people selling firewood lately. Two years ago I got stiffed by a guy, left him money in the mailbox for 2 ricks. He delivered only one, but took all the money, including an extra 10% I added. Never came back, though he called and said he'd be back. The rick of red oak he brought had laid in the forest a long time, and on top of that it had grown a white mold. But he stacked it anyway. My driveway was full of soft inner bark that fell off. Had to put it all in the sun, spread out. Two years before that I got a terrible two ricks, half of it punky, a lot of it too long. Everyone else had been super honest and good at what they do. Previously I could do phone agreements, they could come at their convenience, and I'd leave them money. But now I figure I have to meet any truckload I buy before they dump it. And I'm more inclined to go to a site, pick out the cord, and then have them deliver it. Generally the good truckloads I've received have a strong, nice smell. In other words, it's pretty fresh cut. It's my firewood two years down the road.

My mental attitude these days would be to tell a seller on the phone -- "I may refuse your truckload if it isn't the 16" we agreed on, or it isn't good firewood." It's tricky, because some of these guys are selling the same wood they burn. They see nothing wrong with it. They don't care if smoke comes out of their chimney.

I'm getting all my cherry myself, because a friend a few blocks away had a tree fall down, and someone cut it up for her. So I go over and work on rounds some times, give her half the splits. Cherry is probably your best bet if you need something soon. But that should be bought/cut 6 months before burning, minimum. I don't know that there's much of it up in New Hampshire.

Around here, if I paid $400, I'd expect the wood to be topnotch, like I'd split it myself and stacked it in the sun 2 years.

 

[gzecc]

You did good. Unfortunately your outcome was almost guaranteed. There is no acceptable definition of "seasoned" wood. Buy and stack for 2 yrs is the only working strategy. Could be longer for some oak IMO.

 

[JamesGuido]

You're Good! Glad you didn't get "burned". There are still folks out there that suck.

the guy that supplies me my wood guarantees if i don't like the wood he sells me, he'll refund all my dough and take back the wood - no questions asked.

 

[brenndatomu]

These guys are making maybe $5/hour from their labor

I think OP did good.
I don't really sell firewood, but did recently put up an ad to sell off a little "excess"...basically my cull pile of "shorts and uglies" that I don't put into my main stacks, but crate up to use in the little Drolet insert stove in the LR FP...haven't used it a ton the last few years, getting too many crates of this cull wood sitting around, so I threw up an ad...sold most of it pretty quick to people that were just glad to find some truly dry firewood in February! Got down to the last 2 crates and thought about taking the ad down so I'd still have some stove chow ready if I want to use the Drolet stove (I cut to 20" for the Kuuma furnace...the stove likes 16-17" stuff) but then when I got the price chiselers starting to contact me, decision made, ad came down! Have fun with your cheap firewood buddy! (BTW, I was only charging what would be the equivalent of $320/cord...not bad for 3-4 year CSS firewood in February...I would have priced it a lil higher if it was "pretty" firewood...or if I was delivering it)

 

[MR. GLO]

Craigslist equals wet wood and short cords everytime..i buy green to avoid the disappointment...

I ask them to show me a photo of sample cord in the truck and never get a response.

 

[NewGuy132]

Bought 2 cords this year. I could tell when they were dumping them that it was wet. Split a few pieces and it was 30%+. Maybe it will get good for next year. This forced me to use the wood that I had stacked for next year. Luckily my stack for next year was mostly around 18-20%.

 

[Simonkenton]

A few years ago I called up a guy who was running an ad. I questioned him closely about any rot in the firewood. I told him if it was any rot I didn't want it. He assured me there was no rot. A big Ford pickup truck load for $95.
The guy got up here, three big guys in the pickup. The wood was about 15 percent rotten. I said 'What about all this rot in the wood?" He sai "Well, any wood is going to have some rot."

In other words, the firewood guy is a complete liar. Well there was still $80 worth of wood in that truck.

I didn't want any trouble, if they got mad and started swinging, I would have lost a fight. Sometimes, a guy gets real mad at you, he might show up nex week and burn your house down, or shoot out your windshield. Sometimes, it is better to just throw away 15 bucks.
I paid the $95, we unloaded the wood, and I told him Goodbye. And I lost his phone number. Haven't talked to him since.

Since then, a guy has firewood for sale, I drive to his place on delivery day, and tell him I want to see the wood, loaded in the truck, before he drives to my house. No more "misunderstandings" about rotten wood.

 

[silver78]

Been burning wood stoves for 25+ years. Worked for a tree removal company in the late 70s and early 80s so I have seen the firewood sale industry from both sides. Bottom line is that at least in my experience getting clean dry hardwood for a fair price is like looking for a unicorn. As others have said green wood is the standard. The economics of holding and seasoning the wood simply do not work.

Going one step farther I think calling them scammers is a bit rough. Most of them are somewhat uneducated folks who are just doing it the way everyone else does it in the business.

 

[stoveliker]

I'm sorry but stating that everything is 16 pct or less and it turning out to be 25-30 pct is him just lying. And lying when selling stuff is scamming.

You are probably right about this being what everyone is doing though...

 

[brenndatomu]

I think calling them scammers is a bit rough. Most of them are somewhat uneducated folks who are just doing it the way everyone else does it in the business.

"Doing it like everyone else in the business"...you mean the lying part? Telling the customer your stuff is all under 16% MC when you just split it sounds "scammy" to me...I dunno, maybe just dishonest is a better description...

 

[gthomas785]

I've had plenty of sellers insist that the wood is "seasoned" but quoting a MC number, and 16% at that -- that's a new one!
I don't know what he was expecting, throwing numbers out there is asking for someone to test it.

 

[weatherguy]

A lot of the sellers here selling "seasoned wood" cut it into log form and let it sit one year and then buck and split when you order, that's not seasoned wood by my definition so I've learned to weed those guys out, actually I just buy a couple years ahead and season it in my yard.

 

[bipsic]

Been burning wood stoves for 25+ years. Worked for a tree removal company in the late 70s and early 80s so I have seen the firewood sale industry from both sides. Bottom line is that at least in my experience getting clean dry hardwood for a fair price is like looking for a unicorn. As others have said green wood is the standard. The economics of holding and seasoning the wood simply do not work.

Going one step farther I think calling them scammers is a bit rough. Most of them are somewhat uneducated folks who are just doing it the way everyone else does it in the business.

We call those wood sellers the "Culpepper" boys. They drive over from VA with a load of "wood" and go door to door until it sells. Sometimes you can bargain, but generally it costs $100 a pickup, unless they see a Tesla or Mercedes in the drive, then its $125.

 

[MR. GLO]

Been burning wood stoves for 25+ years. Worked for a tree removal company in the late 70s and early 80s so I have seen the firewood sale industry from both sides. Bottom line is that at least in my experience getting clean dry hardwood for a fair price is like looking for a unicorn. As others have said green wood is the standard. The economics of holding and seasoning the wood simply do not work.

Going one step farther I think calling them scammers is a bit rough. Most of them are somewhat uneducated folks who are just doing it the way everyone else does it in the business.

agree green wood should be the standard. ....but 99.5 percent of sales on craigslist are selling green wood as seasoned and dont put more wood in the truck to compensate for a loose cord....they claim the wood is seasoned for a year and ready to burn and all customers love it... but we know that's not true...if they sold some of their wood as green I would give them some slack..most dont even know the species of wood or know how to use a meter. the just mix...and mix....they know...just ask them to send you a photo of the load beforehand. They wont. ...and some dealers in my area are going to pickup only so you cant inspect.

 

[Dfw245]

agree green wood should be the standard. ....but 99.5 percent of sales on craigslist are selling green wood as seasoned and dont put more wood in the truck to compensate for a loose cord....they claim the wood is seasoned for a year and ready to burn and all customers love it... but we know that's not true...if they sold some of their wood as green I would give them some slack..most dont even know the species of wood or know how to use a meter. the just mix...and mix....they know...just ask them to send you a photo of the load beforehand. They wont. ...and some dealers in my area are going to pickup only so you cant inspect.

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with one minor premise here: I don't agree that green wood should be the standard. At all. I think green wood should be something that homeowners/semi pros/pros seek out to get ahead of the curve. But the casuals expect wood to burn when they buy it unless told otherwise. The standard SHOULD be, whatever you sell and market your wood as, it should be. That cut and dry. No pun intended lol. I don't believe it doesn't economically work. I believe if like most people serious about their wood on here, were to buy their wood a couple years out, they could then stay ahead of the curve. Will it be a process? Better believe it. Tough to manage? Oh sure. But that's the business of going into business. Of course unexpected demand can bankrupt you on wood but hey, all you can do is try your best to prepare for it. Everybody can't be regulated of course, but you regulate most of them and that lowers the percentage of wronged customers. As well as giving customers a reliable place to source their yearly firewood. One things for sure, as difficult as it may be and hard to keep up, when I go into business selling firewood? Each ad I post will be filled with Moisture readings and pictures of such on freshly split pieces. Accurate days of seasoning and accurate wood species. And most of all, accurate measurements of cords with photos of each. For example, 1 cord (4x8x4') Post Oak 2yr 3mo split 20% moisture $200....stuff like that. Ok, whew....rant over lol didn't want u to think I was picking on you, but this thread really hits home for me. I wasn't even looking to go into business doing this, but ever since I started trying to source wood? It's been a crapshoot. There are so many uneducated(I was) people in this industry. I'm glad I've come to this forum to learn as much as I can. And one day hope to help those in need by giving them reliable firewood/smoking wood that they can count on to burn without needing a blazing fire first. Alright.....I'm done lol

 

[Montanalocal]

This guy seems to do a good job.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgoX4dhlG9ZYXPyjvYkXUVA

 

[silver78]

Montanalocal - great link - thanks. I watched this video from him and he says he does not sell to people who heat their homes with wood. He sells to restaurants and high income residential recreational wood burners who pay top dollar for his product. Most folks here are serious volume cost sensitive wood burners.

"I don't sell to people who heat their houses with firewood."
If you want to jump to the punchline just listen starting at 11:00 in the video.

 

[DonTee]

There’s a guy a couple miles down the road from me that “seasons” in log form. He has a small firewood processor, and when and order comes in they process some logs and deliver them. Judging from the amount of wood that goes in and out of there, I doubt any log has been cut for more than a few months before being sold as firewood.

Logs seasoned for 6 months is the standard around here for seasoned wood (for people seasoning their own wood). People buy log loads in the spring, and it sits in log form in their yard until late fall. Then they cut and split it to burn for the winter.

Seems like most people around here who heat their homes with wood get log loads because it’s cheaper.

I see some wood being sold as seasoned on Craigslist and Facebook that does look to be at least a year old. Judging by the gray color. But that’s a very small percentage of the wood for sale around here. <10%.
The crazy thing is that wood doesn’t go for a premium. You just have to search out those ads and ignore the ones with all the “fresh” looking firewood.