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Gasland II

Post in 'The Green Room' started by webbie, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. woodgeek

    woodgeek Minister of Fire

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    Not blaming the govt, saying this is exactly a situation where govt can make it right. The market will develop and field the tech, and the govt will make sure the tech doesn't kill us.

    Think about cars....crazy unsafe things that kill oodles of us. As a people, we have decided that having cars is better than not, so the govt steps in and enforces safety rules and licensing. In analogy, the documentaries in the OP are like the scare videos they show in drivers ed. You still get a license and drive.

    IMO, I suspect that fracking **can** be done at scale with far less environmental impact than lots of other things humans do, like agriculture or building parking lots, and if part of a climate change mitigation strategy, it can be a net positive. It will only be done that way if regulated as part of a sensible public policy plan.

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  2. Chain

    Chain Feeling the Heat

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    Here's a link to a recent article on NCPR.org (North Country Public Radio....my area's National Public Radio affiliate) about an effort to utilize areas near Seneca Lake (the largest of the Finger Lakes in western New York) for the storage of natural gas. As you can probably guess, this idea is quite controversial given this lake is the source of drinking water for many and supplies water to a number of the area's world class wineries, breweries, and blossoming micro-distilleries:

    http://www.northcountrypublicradio....e-finger-lakes-the-place-to-store-natural-gas
  3. jebatty

    jebatty Minister of Fire

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    Continued and even expanding use of fossil fuels has a strong parallel to addiction, and the addiction is sweetened by increased supply and low price. While energy use is essential, the use of fossil fuels is not, because how they are now being used is not essential; instead the use is a savvy market driven love affair with a product that kills the user. The marketer side is pure greed, the same driving force as for other dealers of products that kill the user. The user side is a love affair with a product that delivers pleasure and which causes the user to ignore the consequences. Sure, we all want clean air, water, and soil, but for most the love affair with cheap energy trumps all of that, causes the user to deny the consequences of the behavior, and ultimately leads to death. But the death this time is not just the user, it is life as we know it, sufficiently delayed so as to cause the user to rationalize the final outcome as not likely, or as something that will be solved by technology, or "natural." While in reality, this behavior is plain and simple denial; which is essential if the love affair is to continue; and the outcome is terminal.

    Fortunately the parallel is not exact, but it has many of the key components of addiction, both in the drive to use and in the inability to stop the use. It is a love affair with a very dangerous consort.
  4. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Here is a small piece of real science to add to the puzzle.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130726121612.htm

    Quite a few samples exceeding safe levels of various chemicals.

    The big problem I see with all of this is that, as usual, the profits will be made now but the liabilities will be paid for by others later. In our industrial world, you are always innocent until proven guilty. And, since we know who makes the laws, exemptions can be gained...

    It's difficult putting a value on being able to drink water from underneath where you live. The value is MUCH higher than just to cost of trucking or piping in alternative water. In fact, I always had a creed that I wanted to live in places where I could drink the water from beneath me...I actually moved to the pines of NJ from Bucks county, PA because everyone in Bucks county was using bottled water. It didn't feel right....

    But that's me. What is the price of our personal castles? Where do the rights of my neighbors to drill exceed my right to clean water?

    Tough questions. The first answers may be gained by starting up the studies that industry managed to shut down, doing away with the Cheney exemption to the clean water act, and requiring the extraction corporations to hold some sort of bond for LONG term liability. As it stands, they can use the old shell games to avoid things in the future.
    Ehouse and NortheastAl like this.
  5. vinny11950

    vinny11950 Minister of Fire

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    Because of droughts, aquifer depletion, rising temperatures, and heavy use of water for agriculture and industry (now fracking), potable water is becoming scarce in many parts of the country. And there is no relief in sight, as those conditions will only worsen.

    Pretty soon a corporation is going to charge you for clean, potable water that you used to get for free.

    And it is even worse in China.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/08/08/158417396/heres-where-farms-are-sucking-the-planet-dry
  6. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    It seems like just more madness to me.

    We find a way to extract yet more of the carbon that has been sequestered in the earth by natural processes over millions of years by
    injecting waste materials into our dynamic, poorly defined, and already contaminated sources of drinking water while
    rapidly releasing more greenhouse gases to our arguably threatened and poorly understood biosphere just to
    avoid switching over to renewable energy sources.

    The hubris of humankind(?) is astounding.
    We really understand little about the highly complex systems we live in yet we're willing to risk our children's future with steadfast adherence to unsustainable ways -- basically all in the name of greed and comfort.

    I look back at the way my parents' generation treated the earth and I see ignorance based on lack of science.
    I look at current generations and what we know and what we're doing about it I see maliciousness, greed, and a different kind of ignorance.
    Grisu likes this.
  7. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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  8. eclecticcottage

    eclecticcottage Minister of Fire

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    I truly feel that it partly depends on your own life experiances on if you want to believe the industry/government or not. Living where I do, I am pretty jaded when it comes to believing them. Love Canal (which is now Black Creek, and occupied) was the tip of an iceburg many people would like to ignore...but that's about as smart as the Titanic doing so. Niagara Falls is pretty bad in general, you'd have to poke about to find out all the spots, but it's there. A lot Manhattan Project legacies are still here. A friend that worked at a Praxair saw men in white suits with geiger counters on site-and this wasn't more than 5 years ago. The LOOW...so frightening. I can't seem to find the whole "The Bomb that fell on Niagara" series, but here's one of the articles: http://artvoice.com/issues/v7n39/the_sphere . Of course, on part of the old LOOW land, there's also a CWM site. Fun stuff. South of us, there's the West Valley Demonstration Project. If you really ask around, you'll find crazy stories about encounters with toxins. Look at this-this creek ends at Lake Ontario: http://lockportjournal.com/local/x2...erties-along-Eighteenmile-Creek/?state=taberU We have an extremely high rate of cancers in WNY. If I were to walk around where I work, there would be fewer people without a closer personal cancer story (parent, sibling, SO, themselves) than not.

    Now...the point...is all of this was (is) "safe" according to the government and industries. Just believe us, they said. I'm not so sure I want to anymore.
    NortheastAl and vinny11950 like this.
  9. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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  10. Mark Richards

    Mark Richards New Member

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    I am no pawn of the oil industry but I do understand the benefits of oil to mankind. I have watched both gas land and Fracknation and have made informed decisions on my own knowledge of the situation. I remember when alarmist in the climate change arena told us that by 2013 all ice in the Arctic would be gone. Today it is revealed that there is 60% more than last year and apparently the South Pole has record ice coverage also. I live in SW Minnesota where there are wind towers as far as the eyes can see. They are proven killers of migratory birds and a complete eyesore upon the natural beauty of my homeland, not to mention noisy as hell. But because it is "green energy" it is somehow above suspicion as being adverse to the environment and is not discussed because of the hideous partnership btwn big "wind", big govt and big corruption. All energy demands a corresponding cost to the environment and we as responsible people must do what we can to limit our use of it. But the hypocrisy of the political class and green movement people truly astounds me. They say conserve,conserve, conserve to me in my little 1600 Sq ft house and my Toyota corolla and then we find out that they are all living in 4000 sq ft homes, driving luxury cars and flying all over the planet. One day of their lives energy use would last me for weeks if not months. I burn wood because it is renewable but just like oil it releases CO2 into the atmosphere and just like oil it only releases the amount it absorbed during its life cycle.
    jackatc1 likes this.
  11. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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  12. woodgeek

    woodgeek Minister of Fire

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    The bigger problem is that a lot of our carbon emissions are invisible, embodied in our food, products like cars, etc. The green movement is as imperfect as every other movement---and the fallible people that make it up. Hypocrisy is easy to find, but also to make up and over-hype. The solution is learning to separate truth from scams and denial. In fact, people are using less energy overall, progress, but seemingly smaller than the improvements that need to be made.
  13. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Correct and though better than last year, this year was nothing to brag about. Long term trends still point to a steady decline of sea ice.
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/sep/18/arctic-sea-ice-shrinks-record-low
  14. Doug MacIVER

    Doug MacIVER Minister of Fire

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  15. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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  16. Doug MacIVER

    Doug MacIVER Minister of Fire

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  17. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    thread off track.jpg
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  18. jackatc1

    jackatc1 Burning Hunk

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    http://naturalgasnow.org/fugitive-methane-problem-emanates-from-cornell-itself/#more-1415
  19. vinny11950

    vinny11950 Minister of Fire

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    Are we really supposed to believe miles long casings of concrete are not going to crack and let gas escape?

    I am not saying I know the quantity and frequency of this happening, but it is not a far fetched idea that it happens, as any one who has ever worked with concrete sees that it settles, flexes and cracks over its life time.

    The bigger leap of faith is that it contains leakage.

    And knowing industry, they probably spend as little and skimp a lot to maximize profit and bury the consequences. Do they spend billions of dollars to build it right, or do they spend a few hundred million advertising that they have done it right? Two different things, and in many management classes they are taught and rewarded to choose the greatest profit at the least cost.
  20. jackatc1

    jackatc1 Burning Hunk

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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  21. vinny11950

    vinny11950 Minister of Fire

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    thanks, Jack, i keep reading different things about the casing and the material. i will read up on it and make sure i get the facts right.

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