Getting Heat From The BACK of a Pacific Energy Wood Insert - Questions

[JTRock]

As for the larger insert, I elected with the larger unit so I would have 0 regrets.

For the price point and the heat that the Summit moves, coupled with the good words around this site it was a no brainer. Sure there are prettier stoves, but to me pound for pound the Summit was an easy choice

 

[begreen]

We get a few posts a year where the stove needs to be changed out for a smaller model. It happens. Go large is not a universal solution. The stove is an area heater. If the goal is just to heat the room or part of a house size it accordingly. It's not a crime to have to run some supplemental heat for a few days or a week during extremely cold weather. Particularly not if most of the time in milder winter weather one is able to run the stove at optimal levels. If the stove is too large and one has to constantly run it with partial loads of fuel then burn times are going to be poorer.

Also, it depends on the design of the stove. Some cat stoves are going to burn at the thermostatic rate. In that case, a bigger belly simply means a bigger reserve of fuel, together with a larger surface area radiating heat.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/yup-i-think-the-woodstove-i-got-is-too-big.78571/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/sold-my-nz6000-it-was-too-big-what-now-fpx.91113/
Here's another solution. Stove was too big, so they added on to the house!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/yup-i-think-the-woodstove-i-got-is-too-big.78571/

 

[Grisu]

I am also looking at the two PE stoves that you are as either is an option for our setup. My question for you is: did your installer talk at all about the summit being too large and overheating the room it is in while attempting to supply heat for the adjacent rooms? In many of the posts people are saying they wish they opted for a larger insert, I have yet to read one where someone says theirs was too large/hot but personal conversations have led me to believe this could be an issue.

If heat distribution is a concern in your setup a smaller stove/insert will help less than you may think. When going from a 2 cu ft stove (Super) to a 3 cu ft stove (Summit) you are not going to get 50% more heat all the time. What will happen is that the larger stove will increase your burn time meaning you have to reload less often. While the smaller stove may give you only heat for 8 hours the larger one will be good for 12 hours. You can also adjust the heat output easily by just loading less wood and burning small hot fires. The downside will be that it is more work but when it gets really cold you still have the spare capacity to fill the stove up and get it cranking. For a low, steady heat output you will need to look for a catalytic insert like the BlazeKing Princess.

 

[JTRock]

I think the fore thought of the size of your house goes without saying. My point is if your house Is 1500sq I wouldn't go with a stove that does that at max rating. That's just my opinion and I wanted to make that clear because I'm not an expert. For me it made sense and I know I would have regretted it

 

[begreen]

A picture or two of the room openings, fireplace location and a sketch of the 1st floor plan would help us advise better. FWIW our next door neighbor heats his old 1600 sq ft farmhouse with a PE Spectrum. He thinks their stove is slightly oversized. He only loads it up and runs it 24/7 when temps get below 20-25F here. (or when the in-laws arrive.)

 

[JoeysDad]

Did the dealer break down the cost (and also manufacturer) of the liner, top plate, cap, insulation, and then the labor? $2k seems a little high to me for liner and installation.

No breakdown other than what I posted, unfortunately.

 

[JoeysDad]

Here you can compare the price for the insert: https://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacsumin.htm With shipping you end up at pretty much the same price. For the installation there is no harm in shopping around but don't expect miracles. You may be able to knock-off a few hundred but unless you are willing to do the install yourself there won't be major savings.

A few hundred bucks isn't worth delaying the install or using somebody that isn't good at what they do. This installer comes highly recommended by trusted friends. For the money though, I want it done as well as possible. Cutting corners or making inadvisable alterations to the fireplace (i.e. drilling holes or removing bricks) is something I want to consider very carefully before doing. My next thought is to find out from a home inspector friend I know if these kinds of alterations would be a finding in a home inspection. I'll post what he says here for all to consider.

Thanks for pointing out that the price point is probably in a reasonable range. It gives me a measure of peace, even if I can't really afford it.

 

[Grisu]

Since money is tight you could check if you have enough height to install an Englander 30NC stove in that fireplace. May not look as nice but for $900 it could be used for a few years before the savings from the heating bill will allow upgrading to an insert. For a large insert, take a look at the Osburn 2400 which should be a bit cheaper than the Summit.

 

[JoeysDad]

I have been making the rounds getting estimates on a similar install so I have a few thoughts on your post. The rear venting idea is beyond my knowledge base but my only thought was that several dealers have told me that the inserts are designed to "push" the heat towards the front of the stove and out with the blowers so I'm not sure how much heat would really be coming through that rear vent but maybe your installer has experience/success with doing this. The quote is right on par with what I have been told, somewhere around $3000 for the stove and $2000 for the install. I have gotten cheaper estimates but they were not insulating the liner so that was the difference. I think the cost of any particular stove is going to be pretty constant, especially this time of year. According to my research thus far the parts for the install (liner w insulation, stove connection, block off plate, top plate, cap) could not cost more than $1000 especially since we are installing in a ranch and only need 15' of liner. At least two of the estimates I got quoted a 25' liner as part of the install "package." Right there I'd be paying for 10' of liner that would not be needed. So I am leaning towards installing myself which I am assuming will save me somewhere around $1000, other than that option $4500 - $5500 seems to be the going rate.

I am also looking at the two PE stoves that you are as either is an option for our setup. My question for you is: did your installer talk at all about the summit being too large and overheating the room it is in while attempting to supply heat for the adjacent rooms? In many of the posts people are saying they wish they opted for a larger insert, I have yet to read one where someone says theirs was too large/hot but personal conversations have led me to believe this could be an issue.

Thank you for being another poster confirming the price range as reasonable.

The installer told us that the size of the unit wasn't going to be an issue for our house. He indicated the size difference between the Super and the Summit wasn't really a critical factor on a heating basis as the Summit can be run with less wood and put out the same heat as the Super if less heat is desired. The major advantage is the burn time possible with the larger box. He said the Super ranges from 7-9 hours on a load while the Summit ranges from 9-12 hours on a load. Running the Summit like a Super (filling more often with less wood) when I need less heat but then having the ability to run it full throttle when I need more sounds better than being limited to a small box that may struggle to heat my house when it's really bad outside.

I'm really gunning for a replacement for my current oil based hot water baseboard heat setup, so going small and coming up short is just not my game plan. I was running the heat last year at 62-63 degrees and still filling my tank every 2 months at nearly $800 a fill. As much as I love the idea of a wood insert, I would not be spending this time or money beyond the fact that I NEED to get away from my oil bill. I also would like to get my house to something like 68-70 degrees, aka normal room temperature. We froze our butts off with a newborn last year, and my wife and I are just not ready to put up with that again. If we had run the heat at 68-70 degrees, I really think we could have been spending $600+ per month in oil in addition to approx. $300 in electric. Nearly $1000 a month in energy is an unacceptable scenario for us.

In conclusion, if you're struggling to heat your house like we are and have a busy schedule where you're away from home for long stretches AND you can fit the Summit, the Summit seems like the best extra $500 bucks you can spend on a project like this. Over 10 years of use (it should last longer, but people move), you're paying only a little more than $4 a month. $4 more on average per month to be on the safe side of your $4500+ investment is a no brainer. It's quite possible you'll save that and more by relying less on supplemental heat during the coldest times of the year.

 

[JoeysDad]

I think the fore thought of the size of your house goes without saying. My point is if your house Is 1500sq I wouldn't go with a stove that does that at max rating. That's just my opinion and I wanted to make that clear because I'm not an expert. For me it made sense and I know I would have regretted it

I don't think I can spend $4500 and risk saying down the road I wish I had dug deep for the extra $500 for the bigger model. Changing your mind with this kind of thing isn't like replacing a blender. This is a 450+ lbs, $2500-3000 investment that is expected to be used for the foreseeable future. Coming up short after spending all that money and being stuck with it for all that time would be a real shame.

 

[begreen]

The dealer is correct. Both stoves will do the job. That said, the Summit is a pretty flexible burner and runs happily with a half-load of wood. The main difference besides lower heat output is more frequent feeding. We don't fully load the T6 until temps drop below 35-40F. I think you would be fine with either stove. It sounds like you are getting good advice on the stove, but I would not knock out the back of the fireplace. As far as very cold winter burning goes, dry wood is going to make the critical difference here. These stoves want fully seasoned wood. You can still heat with partially seasoned, but the difference is quite notable. There will be less heat output, more coals and more wood consumed trying to keep the place warm.

Can you post pictures?

 

[JoeysDad]

A picture or two of the room openings, fireplace location and a sketch of the 1st floor plan would help us advise better. FWIW our next door neighbor heats his old 1600 sq ft farmhouse with a PE Spectrum. He thinks their stove is slightly oversized. He only loads it up and runs it 24/7 when temps get below 20-25F here. (or when the in-laws arrive.)

I'm going to get some pictures, but in the meantime you can check out the sketch of the floor plan. It looks like technically, including the sunroom, we have 1758 square feet of living space to heat. The sunroom and family room are notorious for being cold though, so they really need some significant heat. The fireplace location on the floor plan is marked red. The return for the central fan system is marked in blue (I marked it even though I've heard that doesn't help much anyway). The unmarked rectangular section is the stairwell to the full basement. It's worth noting that there is basement space under all of the house except the sunroom. The sunroom is raised off of the ground a few feet though, so we do not have any living space on a concrete slab. This definitely factors in our favor as rooms on slabs are definitely harder to heat.

Let me know what you think about the floor plan in relation to our heating goals.

 

[begreen]

Great. That helps a lot. The location is good, interior and fairly central. The two areas that will be cooler (not including the sunroom) will be the far end bedrooms and the family room. The family room may get a nice warming benefit from the backside of the chimney as it slowly releases heat. If you do the fan trick and place a box, table or floor fan at #27 location, on the floor, pointed toward the stove room and run on low speed I think you will see a 5+ degree improvement in about 30 minutes.

 

[JoeysDad]

Great. That helps a lot. The location is good, interior and fairly central. The two areas that will be cooler (not including the sunroom) will be the far end bedrooms and the family room. The family room may get a nice warming benefit from the backside of the chimney as it slowly releases heat. If you do the fan trick and place a box, table or floor fan at #27 location, on the floor, pointed toward the stove room and run on low speed I think you will see a 5+ degree improvement in about 30 minutes.

Sounds promising. Thanks. Additionally are some pictures of the opening from the kitchen into the family room, the hallway to the bedrooms, the fireplace and the wall that surrounds the back of the fireplace in the family room.

 

[JoeysDad]

Sounds promising. Thanks. Additionally are some pictures of the opening from the kitchen into the family room, the hallway to the bedrooms, the fireplace and the wall that surrounds the back of the fireplace in the family room.

View attachment 139722View attachment 139723View attachment 139724View attachment 139725

Sorry about the pictures not being rotated properly. They appear to attach that way.

 

[begreen]

iPhone? the forum software seems to want horiz only from them.

That door at the end of the hallway didn't show up on the floor plan. Is it used much?

 

[JoeysDad]

iPhone? the forum software seems to want horiz only from them.

That door at the end of the hallway didn't show up on the floor plan. Is it used much?

It's just a linen closet. It's used for storage of backup sheets, some medicine, and cleaning products. It's accessed only a few times a week on average.

 

[begreen]

To start with I would just run the stove and see how the heating goes. No room is going to be freezing cold, just cooler. However, I suspect the family will be spoiled by the nice wood warmth and gravitate toward the stove room at say 75F. That might make other area that are only 5-10 degrees cooler feel cold. Regardless it should be a whole lot more comfortable than last year. Leaving bedroom doors open will help and you may prefer them to be cooler for more comfortable sleeping.

If the family room is too cool there is a pretty easy solution with the fan trick as I posted earlier. If that works I can suggest a more permanent solution. The linen closet at the end of the hallway is a bit more problematic. I don't see any power outlets there for a fan. For a test you may need to temporarily run an extension cord out there.

 

[JoeysDad]

To start with I would just run the stove and see how the heating goes. No room is going to be freezing cold, just cooler. However, I suspect the family will be spoiled by the nice wood warmth and gravitate toward the stove room at say 75F. That might make other area that are only 5-10 degrees cooler feel cold. Regardless it should be a whole lot more comfortable than last year. Leaving bedroom doors open will help and you may prefer them to be cooler for more comfortable sleeping.

If the family room is too cool there is a pretty easy solution with the fan trick as I posted earlier. If that works I can suggest a more permanent solution. The linen closet at the end of the hallway is a bit more problematic. I don't see any power outlets there for a fan. For a test you may need to temporarily run an extension cord out there.

So to be clear, you suggest putting a fan in front of the linen closet on the floor, blowing air down the hallway toward the living room where the stove is, correct? You believe this will displace the cooler air in the family room and replace it with warmer air from the living room, right?

It may be of use to note that I have ceiling fans in the sunroom, family room, and all three bedrooms. Are there any ways I could utilize those to better distribute the heat evenly throughout the house?

 

[prezes13]

I think that would be the best spot for a fan. I have a floor plan similar to yours I don't run any fans other than a ceiling fan which just above the stove. My bedrooms stay 5-10 degrees cooler but I like it that way. When I ran a ceiling fan you can see an instant raise in temp in a hallway by 2-5 degrees.

 

[begreen]

So to be clear, you suggest putting a fan in front of the linen closet on the floor, blowing air down the hallway toward the living room where the stove is, correct? You believe this will displace the cooler air in the family room and replace it with warmer air from the living room, right?

It may be of use to note that I have ceiling fans in the sunroom, family room, and all three bedrooms. Are there any ways I could utilize those to better distribute the heat evenly throughout the house?

Not quite. As I noted earlier, there are two areas that will be cooler. Think of them as zones. Zone 1 will be the far bedrooms, Zone 2 will be the family room. The hallway fan is for zone 1. You may need a second fan for zone 2, but I would try it out for several months first. It could be zone 2 (family room) is partially heated by the chimney masonry. Ceiling fans in the outlying cool areas probably will not make a difference unless the ceiling height is high.

 

[JoeysDad]

Not quite. As I noted earlier, there are two areas that will be cooler. Think of them as zones. Zone 1 will be the far bedrooms, Zone 2 will be the family room. The hallway fan is for zone 1. You may need a second fan for zone 2, but I would try it out for several months first. It could be zone 2 (family room) is partially heated by the chimney masonry. Ceiling fans in the outlying cool areas probably will not make a difference unless the ceiling height is high.

Ok, I understand what you mean about the zones being handled separately. The fan in the hallway is to address the heating needs of the bedrooms, not the family room. But the general concept you're conveying is colder air should be moved toward the warmer air so that warmer air can displace the colder air. Am I understanding that right?

 

[begreen]

Yes, move cooler air down low toward the stove area and it will be replace with warmer air from the stove area.

 

[JoeysDad]

Yes, move cooler air down low toward the stove area and it will be replace with warmer air from the stove area.

Thanks for the clarification.

As far as a permanent solution is concerned, what did you have in mind?

 

[Phoenix Hatchling]

Welcome to h.c

Couple of buzz kills. The central fan thing has been tried by hundreds here and doesn't work. Duct losses pretty much negate any gain. Second, electrical codes call for the plug for any plug connected device to be available in the same room as the device. A safety thing so that if the thing shorts or whatever you can unplug it.

I will leave poking a hole in the back of the fireplace for others to comment about.

Actually we ran the AC vents last winter and it worked great! It also helps that the lines going through the attic have 6-8 inch thick insulation surrounding them. Kept the split level much more evenly heated, and the room with the stove not as blistering hot.