Hearth-mount vs. Fireplace Insert and 6" vs. 10" stainless steel liner

[chemist44286]

Some questions:

1) I am looking to buy a hearth-mount woodstove and every dealer I go to tries to sell me a wood-burning fireplace insert. My wife and I really like the idea of a stove, and know that if we get one we really love, we'd be able to take it with us if we moved. We're not looking to move right now, but it is definately a possibility in the next 5-10 years, and we imagine our future stove lasting much longer than that! My understanding of the advantage of inserts is that they save space in a room. This would not be an issue as the room is big, the floor plan is open, and we want the stove to stick out a bit to efficiently heat the room and be the focal point of the room. We'd also want to make our nightly cup of hot tea on top, maybe a pot of soup or some popcorn, etc. The stove would be part of our home and life in a way an insert can't. So why is everyone trying to sell me an insert?!? It's actually starting to get frustrating. Is there something I'm missing here?

2) The existing fireplace has a stainless steel flue liner inside a 12x12 clay tile liner. The previous owner had this stainless liner installed, and it is approx. 10 or 11" diameter (fills the pipe pretty good, but I did not measure it). The liner goes from the chimeny cap down to the top of the smoke chamber (about 1 or 2 feet above the smoke shelf). It does NOT go all the way down to the damper. One dealer said they'd have to run a 6" diameter stainless flu liner inside the 10 or 11" one to have an adequate draft. Is this reasonable or are they trying to prop up sales? I was not counting on a new liner, which they said would be at least $600. With this and having to expand the hearth we are bordering on not being able to afford it. Is there a way to join the 6" stove exhaust to the existing liner? Would this result in problems like backpuffing? I don't want to spend any money that isn't truly needed.

3) The stoves I'm looking at are small enough to at least partly recess into the old fireplace. Is this wise? While we want to cook on the stove, we don't want it in the middle of the room, either. Can I go back about 6" or so without dramatically affecting the heat output to the room? The chimney is partly inside the house, partly outside. Will the thermal mass of the chimney bricks trap heat and release it slowly, similar to a soapstone effect?

I'm relatively new to this group and really appreciate your patience and your help!

 

[webbie]

A hearth stove is a good choice and may result in more heat for the buck.....

In a case such as your chimney, I would run a short flex piece up from the stove, through a metal plate (see our info area for instructions on how to make and fit) and into approx the bottom of the 10" pipe. Lining to the top is not needed and also would cost you to remove, etc. id you move.

No problem putting the stove back in a little....but keep in mind if it is an exterior chimney that heat soaked up by the rear wall may end up in the great outdoors.

You are not missing anything - your ideas are good, and you just have to make your own decisions rather than letting the shops sell you.

 

[BrotherBart]

As to the hearth stove vs. insert issue I will be replacing my old insert with a stove part way in the fireplace and part way on the hearth next week. The old insert extended almost as far out as the new stove will and heated very well without the blower turned on. I think with the hearth stove I am going to be recovering some of the heat that has been trapped behind the insert surround plate all of these years.

I'll find out for sure next week.

 

[Rhone]

I feel people are trying to sell you inserts because when it comes to fireplaces they're the right tool for the job. An insert started out as a stove placed in a fireplace, but there were problems. The radiant energy coming out the sides, back, top, and some of the bottom was lost. The heat rising off the top went up the chimney. People froze. These people closed off the top of the fireplace, they surrounded their stoves with a shroud to prevent the radiant energy from being lost to the masonry, and put blowers in to blow air around this shroud, they put channels in it, and over time these stoves in fireplaces evolved to become the fireplace insert we know today which solve the problems of enclosing stoves.

You can use a stove with a fireplace. There are many pictures in the picture section here of people doing that. The proper method is to have it out on the hearth with a block-off plate in the damper area and try to get a stove with a rear heat shield or just close off the opening of the fireplace with a surround. Now, your stove will be working like it's intended, in the open and experience none of the problems of enclosing them. At a minimum, get the stove out of the fireplace. Inserts & stoves heat different. A freestanding stove produces convective and radiant heat. Convective is hot air, radiant is a form of light (same as standing in the sun makes you feel warm or hot). The convective heat from a stove travels around the room & house, the radiant energy is only useable around the stove being a form of light. As the radiant energy strikes objects around the stove, it converts into radiant, conductive, and convective heat in that room. An insert has a shroud which recycles most of the radiant heat converting it into convective heat. The proportion of radiant energy reduced from the shroud of an insert is directly proportional to the gain in convective heat. So, a stove will make the room and objects in the room feel warmer than an insert, but doesn't produce as much hot air to travel around the house whereas an insert produces more hot air to travel around the house but doesn't heat objects or you in the room as much as a stove does. Todays freestanding stoves have gotten better about things in my opinion, they're usually a hybrid now having heat shields at least on one side which help boost up the amount of convection heat so they're a little better at moving heat around the house than their ancestors and don't make the room they're in feel as hot either while doing it. You can heat a house with either, but there's certainly a difference walking into a house or hanging out in the room between one heated with a freestanding stove over one heated with an insert, and you're right inserts aren't good at cooking. Even ones with "cooking surfaces" they're usually insulated underneath or have air blowing under these "cooking surfaces", they should be called warming surfaces. The ones that do allow cooking usually require combustibles to be 36" above them, watch that mantel with those.

 

[chemist44286]

Thanks for the opinions so far. The stoves I'm considering are designed to be hearth mounted and so have rear heat shields and short legs. I'd likely add the optional blower, also. I'm considering the Hearthstone Homestead, Quadrafire Yosemite, and VC Resolute Acclaim. I'm going to look at a Jotul and Morso dealer Saturday. So far I'm leaning way towards the Yosemite.

Thanks for the liner response, Craig. Anyone else want to weigh in on the liner issue? I'm really hoping to not re-line the whole thing, but will spend the bucks if that is what it takes to keep from getting smoked out. If there is concensus that this should work, I can push back if/when they try to tell me otherwise. If I need to, I can find someone else to install it.

BB,
Please let us know what you think about the replacement. Are the old insert and hearth stove similar efficiency and heat output (Btu)? If not, it might be difficult to compare...

Rhonemas,
I'm open to your ideas about inserts, especially to explain why the sales folks are so gung-ho. I'm looking for some sort of concensus about efficiency, though that's probably not reasonable to expect. So it's good to hear both side of the arguement and let the learned folks here sort it out! In the end, aesthetics and stove-top use will probably win out anyway.

 

[Rhone]

Out of the three, the Homestead is a different category. It's like the Cadillac of stoves being made of exotic soapstone and Hearthstone is a mostly Elite brand. If youre tight on financials I can't see the Homestead being feasible. The Yosemite is really small. Only a 1.45 cu ft firebox, you'll be loading that up a lot. The VC Acclaim is the one that pulls ahead in my opinion, 1.7 cu ft firebox, and you can put warming mits on, cool looking, and top loading from what I see people really like top loading units. Does the Acclaim have an optional rear heat shield or is it only an optional bottom?

 

[webbie]

Acclaim is great hearth stove, but if you have wood mantel relatively close above, it can be tough.

The acclaim design throws a LOT of the heat toward the top - specifically the rear of the top. Be careful

 

[BrotherBart]

BB,
Please let us know what you think about the replacement. Are the old insert and hearth stove similar efficiency and heat output (Btu)? If not, it might be difficult to compare...

The comparison won't be difficult at all. The old stove was a heating beast. If the house doesn't stay warm this winter then the new stove doesn't compare. BTU and efficiency numbers weren't even in the game when the old stove was made. And I pretty much think those numbers for the new stoves are BS. I don't have a rule book in my hand when I am loading the stove and it isn't dry Douglas Fir that I am loading it with. The stove I am buying boasts a 1.6 gram per hour emissions figure. I bet I never see that. My opacity test is simple: Do I see smoke coming out of that chimney? Yes: Turn it up. No: Turn it down a little. Rinse and repeat.

Whack a third off of the burn times and BTU numbers and then buy the one that looks good in your house. Mine is going to look like a big steel box. My wife says that is what a stove is supposed to look like.

 

[elkimmeg]

Some on this site think I'm VC plant anyhow yes the resolute acclaim does have an optional rear heat shield it also has optional short leg kit and optional fire screen for open fire viewing.

A word of advice, I found out the hard way do not cook on a cermanic surface stove even using the griddle plate. I had a nice tea kettle on top of mine blue cermanic Acclaim.
One day my wife decided to put some poupori in it. Since I had no knowledge of its presence, I was not watching the stove when it boiled over. Even at boiling 212 degrees that's a lot cooler than 500 degree surface temp. It spilled over to the ceramic and shocked it, to the point all around the griddle plate, the ceramic flaked off. God it looked ugly, New stove mind you.
Before I sold it to another forum member I replaced the top and led to just about rebuilding the stove.

Here is another twist to consider yes a liner is required in that flue according to Cross-sectional codes, if using a stove witha 6" flue collar. However, if you moved up one stove model to the Encore, it has an 8" flue collar. That cross- sectional code would be allowed in you current setup, provided the existing liner is HT 2100 rated . A well sealed blockoff plate would be mandatory
and you could install that stove by the direct connect method. Disclaimer still not the optium venting. The encore can also be vented with a 6" optional adapter but the open fire screen is no longer an option. I can measure mine and tell you the exact height of the rear vent pipe to see if it fits in your setup.

 

[chemist44286]

Thanks for all the responses. I found a local hearth shop with a really great sales attitude. They listened to what I wanted, asked me politely about inserts to ensure I had considered all my options, then showed me the hearth stoves they had that would work for my size house. I ended up getting a quote and they will be the ones that get my business. Very positive experience.

I measured the existing round SS liner at the top where it exits the chimney and it is 9" diameter. Not sure if that changes any previous suggestions.

Hearth shop said they could either:

1. Install a 6" liner all the way up (which they recommended). Would require modifying the brick of the existing firebox to remove the throat damper. They stated I'd be able to brush all the way down and not have to disconnect anything for my regular cleaning/maintenance.

2. Install a section of pipe through the existing throat damper that extends up into the existing 9" diameter liner. They said they would not be able to seal the two pipes together, just create an overlap and seal around the throat damper with fireproof insulation. This would not alter the existing firebox/damper and the masonry fireplace could be a normal fireplace again if the we ever moved and took the stove with us.

My understanding is the second option is considerably cheaper (both parts and installation expenses), but would require disassembly once or twice a year for proper cleaning. Any thoughts/recommendations from the group? Is this too much trouble to mess with? My quote is "worst case", so it prices in the costs of the full liner kit and installation, and at my next visit I'll be getting a quote on option #2 so I know the actual price difference. My guess is about $500, which is substantial!

 

[elkimmeg]

I found a local hearth shop with a really great sales attitude. They listened to what I wanted, asked me politely about inserts to ensure I had considered all my options, then showed me the hearth stoves they had that would work for my size house. I ended up getting a quote and they will be the ones that get my business. Very positive experience

Please do not take this the wrong way. They may know a good sales approach,but know crap about code or your well being. Ask then to quote the NFPA 211 Cross-secctional code?



I

nstall a section of pipe through the existing throat damper that extends up into the existing 9” diameter liner. They said they would not be able to seal the two pipes together, just create an overlap and seal around the throat damper with fireproof insulation. This would not alter the existing firebox/damper and the masonry fireplace could be a normal fireplace again if the we ever moved and took the stove with us.

seal around the throat damper with fireproof insulation.

In life you get what you pay for, if lucky. This is one application, I will not acccept. It fails inspection every time. This Is bogus. I can't believe they are even suggestiog what they purposed to you. You came here for good advice and safe code compliant install well that's option #1 witha metal damper block off plate and flue top seal and propre termination cap. That is the corrrect way. IF you opt for option #2 you next post will be my stove does not draft it back puff smoke I can never get it up to normal heating range.

You will add to the hunderds of simmilar post like this this year all suggestions will tell you what you should have done in the first place Option #1 with a well sealed block off plate
Option two is not code compliant or all that safe

 

[recppd]

My vote is for the full 6" liner. It will assist with draft and be MUCH easier to clean.

 

[webbie]

Either option sounds fine...just use a metal block off plate at bottom instead of insulation. If they need instructions on how to make on, you will find them in our info section.

 

[elkimmeg]

12.4.4* Flue Cross-Sectional Area. For residential-type, natural draft solid fuel-burning appliances, the flue shall meet the following conditions:
(1) The cross-sectional area of the flue shall not be less than the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar, unless specified by the appliance manufacturer.
(2) The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with no walls exposed to the outside below the roofline shall not be more than three times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.
(3) The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with one or more walls exposed to the outside below the roofline shall not be more than two times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.

 

[webbie]

I think Elk is suggesting that the 9" flue may be too big....

The area of the 6 is approx. 30 square inches. The area of the 9" is about 65.

This puts it well within the 3x and dang close to the 2x.- IN addition, since the flue is already lined, it has the benefit of an additional wall of air/insulation, etc.

So, in my opinion, this will work very well either way. If it was my own home, I'd probably use the 9" because if you move soon and someone wants to go back to open fireplace, it will be much easier...to say nothing of the added expense. Given a clean burning stove, I see little problem. There are up and down sides either way. Without a full liner, you will have to remove the stove and plate to properly clean....then again, newer stoves don't need it too much.

 

[iceman]

Thanks for all the responses. I found a local hearth shop with a really great sales attitude. They listened to what I wanted, asked me politely about inserts to ensure I had considered all my options, then showed me the hearth stoves they had that would work for my size house. I ended up getting a quote and they will be the ones that get my business. Very positive experience.

I measured the existing round SS liner at the top where it exits the chimney and it is 9" diameter. Not sure if that changes any previous suggestions.

Hearth shop said they could either:

1. Install a 6" liner all the way up (which they recommended). Would require modifying the brick of the existing firebox to remove the throat damper. They stated I'd be able to brush all the way down and not have to disconnect anything for my regular cleaning/maintenance.

2. Install a section of pipe through the existing throat damper that extends up into the existing 9" diameter liner. They said they would not be able to seal the two pipes together, just create an overlap and seal around the throat damper with fireproof insulation. This would not alter the existing firebox/damper and the masonry fireplace could be a normal fireplace again if the we ever moved and took the stove with us.

My understanding is the second option is considerably cheaper (both parts and installation expenses), but would require disassembly once or twice a year for proper cleaning. Any thoughts/recommendations from the group? Is this too much trouble to mess with? My quote is "worst case", so it prices in the costs of the full liner kit and installation, and at my next visit I'll be getting a quote on option #2 so I know the actual price difference. My guess is about $500, which is substantial!

the second option sounds good if it works financially for ...... but let it be temp. you can always do that yourself and then next year buy the liner it all doesn't have to be done now check with elk for codes and possible violations... but it sounds like a pretty good TEMPORARY FIX you might not get all the benefits of having the liner but i am sure you won't lose anything