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Hearth pad being built, R-value required 1.2, no micore in sight

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Highbeam, Jul 12, 2007.

  1. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    I'll second do not buy tile from home cheapo A customer picked out the tikle I installed in her bathroom there were spmany chips of the ceranic coating I had to rip it all out and start over
    Home Cheapo sell crap seconds in tile. I will never buy tile from there again And while I'at their bher paint sucks too poor coverage poor color pigmentation and has the dendency of lifting

    Another product I will never buy there again

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  2. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    Thanks for the tip guys, I happen to live within walking distance of the HD here so frequently stop by there on route to other places. It has been very handy but I had no idea that there ceramic tile was also a bad purchase idea. We have some floor specialty stores that sell nice tile but I want to be sure not to find some rare stuff that I can't replace in the event of a cracked tile. I will buy extras for sure. A pretty small tile purchase so I can afford to use a higher priced tile. I need to buy it soon so that I can do the layout and build the hearth to match the tile size.
  3. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Tip highbeam rent a wet saw to cut your tiles the end results will look so much more professional

    Tip two purchase plastic spacers If using square tile the mark the center lines so that all edges have even mangins
    do a dry run placement with the spacers first to see the mag rgin differences. If that does not work out then can you add to the platform or design the platform to match the tile size

    It might pay to purchase the tile and lay it out before building the hearth remember there is no, penalty for exceeding requirements just an added safety margine.

    PS latest NFPA 211 now requires 18" in front of loading doors not 16" That change occured in the 2006 edition
  4. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Actually what I've heard some suggest is that rather than renting a wetsaw, one get one of the HF cheapies, use it for the job then sell it on E-Pay - total cost less than the rental, no worries about rushing through the job in order to get the saw back in time, etc... The HF tool may be a junker for long term use, but it should last long enough to use it and pass it on to some other [strike]sucker[/strike] purchaser.

    On the NFPA 211 change, does that now mean that US and Canadian setups will have the same value? If so I need to change the Wiki article.

    Gooserider
  5. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    For crying out loud, the requirement is 18" now? I feel like a canadian at heart eh so that's okay. I had planned for that and even a little more than 18" as I was going to shoot for 18" from the front of the ash lip but cripes, I would have been pretty upset if I did my best to use the manufacturer's specs and picked 16". Then even more ticked off if I had used the 0.92 R value per 1/8" of air space only to find that that was also in error.

    Thank goodness for this site.

    I'll take a look at the HF saw too. I will pick up the tile and spacers before even buying the metal studs. I want to minimize the cut tiles.
  6. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    Okay, the steel studs are in. I used a lot of these studs since they felt really flimsy and with lots of studs came lots of machine screws so lots of little high spots to set the durock on. I set the durock on and screwd it frequently to the stud flanges. Then cut the side skirts and screwed them to the sides of the studs.

    Steel studs are not very strong. The durok for the skirt was especially bad about not being rock solid since it floats around as the web of the steel stud flexes. Securely screwed these things aren't solid like a wood stud.

    I taped and mudded the seams just as I would do a sheetrock job but using special mesh tape and mortar. Then lscrewed down the second layer or durock with stagerred seams and a full bed of mortar applied with the notch trowel. This really made things stronger. The steel studs allow some creeks and noise but I hope that the weight of the stove, tile, and more mortar tighten things up.

    The durok is great to work with using an abrasive wheel on my circular saw. Very predictable but heavy. The steel studs were hard to find. Not at HD or Lowes, a Mclendons hardware store had them after calling several other hardware stores.

    The hearth looks big now. I mudded all the seams on the top and the pad is starting to look solid now.

    I checked for level and everything is spot in in both directions. I have pictures at home for the inspector.
  7. babalu87

    babalu87 New Member

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    Not running the flag up the pole for Home Deep-ho but I have used their wetsaw on two jobs using porcelain tile and it still in great condition.
    I second buying one and then re-selling...... though I have never re-sold a tool in my life and rarely borrow tools, I just get it if I need it.
  8. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    I have the regular old tile snapper in hand right now. I am learning by doing here so I have designed my pad for only straight cuts in places that are concealed. It's just a big rectangle, nearly 4'x6'. The tile is labeled as porcelain but it has a base material and then a glaze so that it looks like a ceramic. I don't know but in reading the porcelains are known for better strength and durability.

    I will do some practice snapping tonight.
  9. rodstabile

    rodstabile New Member

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  10. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    "For items shipped via freight carrier to residential addresses, a $65 fee will be added to your order. There is no charge for delivery if we can deliver to a commercial business address not in a residential area or if the mantel can be picked up at a nearby freight terminal."

    It'll be pricey but it is a source. Good detective work Java.
  11. michaeldd

    michaeldd New Member

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    NE OH
    Hello All,

    I've been lurking for a while gathering information, making plans, finding new info, revising plans... ad infinitum it seemed at times. The time has finally come when it has all nearly reached a finish. The hearth is built, my VC Defiant I stove is in place, and the house is warmer! Thank you all for your valuable help.

    Here is what I did...

    I had problems gathering some firm information about the R values for my stove so I made the best estimation I could adding what I thought were decent safety margins. I did the same for wall clearances since the Defiant I manual wasn't all that clear and I was unable to get a copy of the Installation and Planning Guide from VC.

    Originally I planned for a hearth that would have given a wall clearance of 36". When I laid that out on the floor I found it blocked most of a doorway and a window... ok, so no go. Back to more research. My stove came with a rear shield, and with proper wall shielding I could reduce clearances to nearly 12". Ok, that could fit and for good measure I gave the stove 16" clearance from the wall placing it angled toward the room, 45 degrees to the walls. The hearth ended up at 68" x 68" with the corner extending into the room clipped at 45 degrees and 20" out from the stove front.

    With planning finished I started construction by stripping the carpet from the floor and:
    1. One layer of 3/4" exterior plywood nailed down with 1 1/2" galvanized roofing nails.
    2. One layer of 1/2" Micore 300.
    3. One piece of 24 ga aluminum which extended to within 4" of the edges.
    4. Two layers of 1/2" Durock.
    5. One layer of bright white 6" x 6" tile.
    6. Four bricks of 8" x 8" x 4" size under the feet of the stove.
    7. One sheet of 24 ga aluminum sized to fit under the stove, on top of the bricks.
    8. Flex-bond between all layers.
    9. 1" galvanized roofing nails used on all layers from the Micore 300 and up. I thought 1" would secure each layer to the one below, but help prevent heat transmission to lower layers.

    When working on the placement of the layer pieces I'd first thought to cut a 4' wide pieces, as long as would fit, then cut other pieces to fit the remaining space, rotating the layers so seams were not one on top of the other. I didn't like this because I always ended up with a bunch of small pieces cut to fit the increasingly smaller gaps. Then I had an idea... what if I cut a 4' x 4' square of material and placed it in the center like a diamond with the points reaching out to the corners. wonderful! In a stroke of great fortune the hypotenuse of a right triangle with two 48" sides was 68", the exact length of the hearth sides! Now the seams wouldn't lie one above the other... one layer with a 48" square diamond in the middle, then the next with four triangles with the points in the center. To make it easier to visualize, try to picture this: firstly cut one 4' x 8' sheet into two 4' x 4' pieces. One of these is placed in the center. Cut the remaining square into four triangles to fit the remaining corners of the hearth. Secondly cut a 4' x 8' sheet into two 4' x 4' squares, then cut each square into two triangles resulting in four triangles dimensioned 48" x 48" x 68". These were placed on the hearth with the 68" edge on the outside of the hearth and the points in the center.

    I realize some of this is over engineering it a bit, but lacking in hard data I decided to make SWAGs that erred on the side of caution. I've read that an aluminum layer, while once required, is no longer, but I decide to include it anyway, terminating it well away from the edges to prevent any heat from making it to the edges of the hearth and it's wood trim.

    The stove sits on top of four bricks that are raised above the top of the tile by approximately 3 1/4", thereby lessening radiation gain some more. On top of the bricks, and beneath the stove, I placed a sheet of 24 ga aluminum as an additional heat reflector. I also used bright white tile to reflect as much heat as possible vice absorb it.

    I have started placing Durock on the walls which will eventually extend 8' up from the hearth surface. Eventually I'll add tile to it as well, perhaps with a mosaic of Prometheus bound in chains with the great eagle feeding on his liver...

    I've attached a photo of the nearly finished installation. The wood you see on the hearth is drying from the recent snows, it will be moved shortly. Nothing will be placed on the tile for the long term.

    I'd be happy to hear your thoughts, comments, etc.

    Attached Files:

  12. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Welcome Michael. Good to see your progress. Can you start a new thread on this topic so that we can follow your work exclusively?

    I think you can lose the top brick and heatshield aluminum. Clever solution, but you are adequately covered by the nice hearth. One thing to check though, the Defiant needs large clearances. There should be 36" between the load door opening and the wall. The walls look like they might need wall shields and the curtain should go.

    PS: The manual for older VC stoves is posted in two parts here:
    http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Vermont_Castings_Older_Stove_Models/
  13. tjwarren

    tjwarren New Member

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    [quote author="Highbeam" date="1191268005"]"For items shipped via freight carrier to residential addresses, a $65 fee will be added to your order. There is no charge for delivery if we can deliver to a commercial business address not in a residential area or if the mantel can be picked up at a nearby freight terminal."

    It'll be pricey but it is a source. Good detective work Java.[/quote

    That's where I ordered from and it's was free shipping to my door. I just clicked on the link and added to cart md it says the same thing.I also have found on Ebay
  14. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    Holy old thread batman.

    Michaeldd, your post deserves its own thread.

    Thanks for the blast from the past.
  15. Renovation

    Renovation New Member

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    Could you say more about Hardi Backer board's workability & strength characteristics? I want to put a noncombustible surface on the underside of a ceiling, and want something that won't sag, etc. So far it seemed Durock was the stiffest/strongest choice.
  16. CHIMENEA

    CHIMENEA New Member

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  17. michaeldd

    michaeldd New Member

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    BeGreen,

    Apologies if this thread isn't appropriate. I wasn't sure where to post so I decided to post in a thread from which I gathered information and in which the Defiant, Micore, and hearths were topics of discussion.

    Re the curtain, clearances, etc., the photo which shows the curtain was taken immediately after the stove was placed. More work was accomplished afterward as can be seen in a different photo.

    I search all over the 'net using as many variations of Installation and Planning Guide as I could think of without success, then tonight I picked up a copy of a Defiant user's manual which I had misplaced and lo and behold, there it was, stapled to the back! Anyway, clearances from the corners to the wall (not the Durock shielding) is 18 inches; the stove has a rear heat shield.

    Yeah, I could probably lose the square footing bricks, but now they're mortared and grouted in place, and I don't feel like moving the stove at all to remove the aluminum until summer when I'll rebuild the stove. One of the reasons I wanted to share that particular item is because I hadn't seen or read about such a thing and wanted to share it with the community. Perhaps it could be useful to someone.
  18. GlennMike

    GlennMike New Member

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    Does anybody know what those 2' x 4' standard ceiling tiles that you see everywhere are made out of??? I just finished my install a little bit ago, used micore, but when I was browsing at home cheapo I took a good hard look at em and it looked very similiar to micore??? for like $2 a pop
  19. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Hey Michael, no problem. I found your planning somewhat unique and thought it deserved it's own thread for posterity and easier searching. You deserve good feedback for doing the research and photo documentation. Thanks for posting these good details.

    If you can scan the VC installation guide and send it to me via a PM, I will add it to the wiki docs.
  20. michaeldd

    michaeldd New Member

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    Gotcha. I'll new thread it soon with pics.

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