Heat Pump Opinions

[timfromohio]

Our heat pump is going on 14 years old and is giving up the ghost. It's am American Standard, 3 ton, single speed blower in the air handler, running the old R22 refrigerant. I'm getting several quotes - different company sizes and brands.

Anyone have opinions on Rheem vs. American Standard vs. Tempstar? I'm getting quotes for basic models and then one level up which provides a variable speed blower and better humidity control. All the HVAC guys said the variable speed blower plus humidity control would be great in the winter to help distribute heat from the stove (our primary heat source in the winter) and keep the house from drying out too much. Think this is legit?
It seems that the majority of the components are very similar and it comes down to the unit being properly installed and the warranty.

Thanks for any opinions!

 

[Highbeam]

Seems that the consensus here is trying to move heated stove room air to the whole house via the furnace blower does NOT work so don't go variable speed just for that. There are other reasons though and I would recommend at least a multistage system.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

It does work to some degree ,in my 3000SF , 3 level home,each floor up is 7 to 10 degrees cooler. Stove Bsmt floor 85 ,next floor up kit and living rooms 75 ,3rd floor bedsrooms 68.

 

[fbelec]

depends on your system on if it will work or not. if your return air ducts are close to the floor then you'll be circulating the coolest air in the room to the next rooms if it is in the ceiling it might work. if the only thing that is different is the multi speed blower and you don't plan on living there for long stay with the single speed. the multi speed fan is going to work like high fan for air cond and med for heat. if you plan on staying in that house for a while and have a bit of extra money go with the multi speed condenser and blower. saves money on running it. if you have gas in the house go for duel fuel they are great money savers. if just thinking multi speed blower skip it and go with the single speed just for when the blower motor needs to be replaced it's double the cost. ie ecm motor. the electronic board goes before the motor itself and has to be replaced together because the board is in the motor

 

[begreen]

Also depends a lot on how well sealed and insulated the ductwork is and whether it runs through a conditioned or unconditioned space. There needs to be minimum heat loss through the ductwork for best success.

 

[timfromohio]

Thanks for feedback so far everyone. How about brands? Tempstar vs. American Standard vs. Rheem?

 

[moey]

The humidity control will only work I believe with the furnace running you need warm air to hold moisture otherwise you will have a condensation issue. All blowers should be variable speed. If they are not move onto the next brand some houses have more/less ductwork so they need to be variable speed. Maybe you are talking about a variable speed heat pump one that can ramp up/down based on load.

 

[timfromohio]

Referring to variable speed blower in the air handler; got quotes for single speed and variable speed. Not referring to variable speed compressor in the heat pump itself (inverter heat pump I think?) or dual-speed heat pump.

Thanks for any feedback on brands,

Tim

 

[Highbeam]

Thanks for feedback so far everyone. How about brands? Tempstar vs. American Standard vs. Rheem?

What all the pros will tell you is that it is not the brand, but the installation. A well installed goodman will last longer and be more efficient than a poorly installed high dollar unit. That includes ductwork, lineset, sealing, charging, everything.

 

[begreen]

We have an 11yr old, 3ton, 2 stage, American Standard Heritage with a variable speed air handler. It's been a good unit and it's nice and quiet. If I replaced it though I would be looking at the best Carrier, Daikin and Mitsubishi units. They have really improved efficiency in some top of the line systems.

 

[fbelec]

i been wiring york units. so far less call backs

 

[begreen]

Knock on wood, the only servicing on ours has been filter changing so far.

 

[maverick06]

i have a 10 year old trane, its working very well. had it installed by horizon services, through home depot, back them. They were the cheapest at the time i had mine installed.

 

[begreen]

i have a 10 year old trane, its working very well. had it installed by horizon services, through home depot, back them. They were the cheapest at the time i had mine installed.

You made out pretty good. Out of 4 quotes the Home Depot/Trane quote was the highest. It was over 100% higher than the next lower quote and 150% higher than the actual installation cost.

 

[timfromohio]

Funny this thread became active again. The temperatures here have been quite moderate so I have taken my time in getting 3 quotes, reading quite a bit, and asking follow up questions. I asked the company I thought I'd go with for their best and final offer this past Friday. They responded Friday, late afternoon with a "meet in the middle" sort of reduction compared to the lower-priced company. I responded this morning and said great, let's get on the install schedule only to be told that their costs (magically) went up $500 since my initial quote technical expired on Saturday. Can't stand those kinds of games, so went with the smaller company. We'll see how it goes .... Going for a Tempstar, 16 seer single stage heat pump with a variable speed blower on the air handler. Should be quite a bit more efficient than the nearing 14 year-old leaky unit we currently have with the single speed blower.

 

[Highbeam]

Funny this thread became active again. The temperatures here have been quite moderate so I have taken my time in getting 3 quotes, reading quite a bit, and asking follow up questions. I asked the company I thought I'd go with for their best and final offer this past Friday. They responded Friday, late afternoon with a "meet in the middle" sort of reduction compared to the lower-priced company. I responded this morning and said great, let's get on the install schedule only to be told that their costs (magically) went up $500 since my initial quote technical expired on Saturday. Can't stand those kinds of games, so went with the smaller company. We'll see how it goes .... Going for a Tempstar, 16 seer single stage heat pump with a variable speed blower on the air handler. Should be quite a bit more efficient than the nearing 14 year-old leaky unit we currently have with the single speed blower.

So with a single stage heat pump and VS blower it's a lot like what you have in your pickup truck's AC system. That is, the blower may or may not dump enough heat into the coolant to keep the single stage compressor running. In a truck, the compressor kicks on and off every few minutes to maintain pressure in the system. Will the single stage compressor turn on and off frequently in the same manner?

I can see single stage or double stage matching compressors to blowers to keep the compressor running all the time.

 

[timfromohio]

So with a single stage heat pump and VS blower it's a lot like what you have in your pickup truck's AC system. That is, the blower may or may not dump enough heat into the coolant to keep the single stage compressor running. In a truck, the compressor kicks on and off every few minutes to maintain pressure in the system. Will the single stage compressor turn on and off frequently in the same manner?

I can see single stage or double stage matching compressors to blowers to keep the compressor running all the time.

Not sure I know the exact answer - what I can tell you is that 2 of the 3 companies I got quotes from, as well as online reading, stated that the 2-stage heat pump is great for a ranch house, not so much for a house with vaulted ceilings and large air volumes to deal with at start up times. A 2-stage would behave like a bad automatic transmission hunting for gears - switching back and forth. With a single speed, the compressor will run (on/off is bad for both efficiency and wear/tear) but the air handler will cycle up/down based on thermostat behavior - my assumption is that the newer, intelligent thermostats have pid-type feedback loops and will ramp blower speed up/down to maintain steady-state temperature.

 

[timfromohio]

PS - am scheduled for install on Monday, so I'll let you know how the system works out!

Also, I should have control over the blower speed when only operating the fan, so if I want to try circulating air with stove going, I can do so with low speed on the fan.

 

[begreen]

Our 2 stage compressor/variable speed air handler works well in our 2 story house, 9'6" ceilings. It's primarily used for fall/spring heating. The quieter second stage compressor cycle happens mostly during mild weather, but it will start out on high and then shift to low for another 15-30 min. depending on outside temp. Likewise with the blower speed. We have no control over the blower speed at the thermostat. The system regulates itself based on outdoor temp for which there is a remote sensor. FWIW, I have never heard the compressor hunt for speed, or switch back and forth. When temps drop below 50F outside and the house is just being brought up from overnight temp, then it goes directly into high mode. Low speed mode (cmpr&fan) happens when temps are mild or when the house just needs a tweek to stay warm. Low speed is amazingly quiet. I have to look out to see the cmpr fan turning or put a hand over a vent to feel it. There is no extra noise when cycling. When it gets down below 50F I start burning at least part time. Below 45F outside we are burning 24/7.

 

[Highbeam]

Let us know. I spent the weekend on the road listening and feeling to the truck's a/c compressor kick on and off when the blower was fixed. Growing up we all had single stage equipment that was matched fairly well so that both ran all the time, I understand that. New VS stuff, both compressor and blower can adjust speeds to stay on all the time, that makes sense too.

Trying to imagine how yours will act and hope the compressor doesn't cycle much. They can make a lot of noise when cycling too.

 

[Highbeam]

When it gets down below 50F I start burning at least part time. Below 45F outside we are burning 24/7.

It was 46 this morning at the highbeam house!

 

[timfromohio]

Let us know. I spent the weekend on the road listening and feeling to the truck's a/c compressor kick on and off when the blower was fixed. Growing up we all had single stage equipment that was matched fairly well so that both ran all the time, I understand that. New VS stuff, both compressor and blower can adjust speeds to stay on all the time, that makes sense too.

Trying to imagine how yours will act and hope the compressor doesn't cycle much. They can make a lot of noise when cycling too.

I did get a quote for an "inverter" heat pump - in these the compressor has multiple (like 5) speeds or is indeed truly variable. When paired with the variable speed blower on the air handler is supposed to be way efficient. However, I don't feel like we're in the "forever" house and the technology still seems relatively new to me, so I just went for the more basic system. The cost difference was not that much more in the big scheme of things, but the fact that my oldest son just got braces ....

 

[begreen]

It was 46 this morning at the highbeam house!

Wow, 55 was our low here. No need for heat, the house retained plenty overnight. Only 70F outside now/ 72 inside. That's a big change from last week.

 

[moey]

Not sure I know the exact answer - what I can tell you is that 2 of the 3 companies I got quotes from, as well as online reading, stated that the 2-stage heat pump is great for a ranch house, not so much for a house with vaulted ceilings and large air volumes to deal with at start up times. A 2-stage would behave like a bad automatic transmission hunting for gears - switching back and forth. With a single speed, the compressor will run (on/off is bad for both efficiency and wear/tear) but the air handler will cycle up/down based on thermostat behavior - my assumption is that the newer, intelligent thermostats have pid-type feedback loops and will ramp blower speed up/down to maintain steady-state temperature.

Having your blower speed ramp up and down does not make any sense unless you are changing the compressor speeds.

Multi stage compressors run the air handler at one speed for stage 1 and one speed for stage 2. There is a optimal speed that you should not deviate much from otherwise you stray from the max efficiency.

I've never heard or read that a 1 stage heat pump is better then a 2 stage heat pump for any applications in terms of efficiency perhaps upfront cost yes. The most efficient operation is when supply equals demand. With a multi stage compressor your able to match that more closely. Variable speed pumps you can match it even more precisely.

In the winter our heat pump runs 24/7 when its below 20F its goes between stage 1 and stage 2 unnoticed unless I go look at the thermostat. You don't hear a ramp up or ramp down of the compressor. You do notice when it comes on.

 

[timfromohio]

Having your blower speed ramp up and down does not make any sense unless you are changing the compressor speeds.

Multi stage compressors run the air handler at one speed for stage 1 and one speed for stage 2. There is a optimal speed that you should not deviate much from otherwise you stray from the max efficiency.

I've never heard or read that a 1 stage heat pump is better then a 2 stage heat pump for any applications in terms of efficiency perhaps upfront cost yes. The most efficient operation is when supply equals demand. With a multi stage compressor your able to match that more closely. Variable speed pumps you can match it even more precisely.

In the winter our heat pump runs 24/7 when its below 20F its goes between stage 1 and stage 2 unnoticed unless I go look at the thermostat. You don't hear a ramp up or ramp down of the compressor. You do notice when it comes on.

If the temperature/humidity of the air going through the air handler were constant I'd agree that a variable speed blower made no sense. However, since both of these will change after the system has been operating for a while it makes sense to me that you want to vary the mass flow of air through the air handler over time. True matching this with a variable speed compressor would be the most efficient way to run the system, but if you going to vary only one of either the heat pump compressor or the air handler blower, varying the blower speed makes sense to me. By not varying the speed of the heat pump compressor, you generating extra heating or cooling capacity that you may not be using and varying blower speed seems akin to the poor man's way of taking more or less advantage of this capacity while not causing the heat pump to continually cycle on then off; each of these cycles is indeed a real efficiency killer.

All that said, I'm not an HVAC guy, but that's what I read on some HVAC forums and what the guys I got quotes from explained.