Heat Question

[huffdawg]

How many Btu's in 500 gal of water heated to 185 °F

 

[nate379]

About 765,000 if my math is right.

1 BTU = amount of heat needed to make 1 lb of water 1* warmer.

8.3lbsx 500galx185F.

 

[huffdawg]

Thanx Nate . That seems like a lot of heat. My storage tank drops from 185 °F to 120 °F in 14 hrs. I'm away from home right now and my wife is saying that she is burning almost 3 fire boxes full of wood a day right now . Its about -3 °C there . I'm only heating a 900 ² ft slab right now and a 36 gal DHW. Its in a shop with a closed rafter style suite up top . all well insulated .

Seems like thats a lot of wood . She says it burns a load of bone dry broad leaf maple in about 4 hrs. Maybe the woods so dry I need to make some adjustment to the air and fan settings.

But I'm 200 miles away from home . Working Grave yards so I guess there is not much I can do.

 

[jebatty]

My storage tank drops from 185 °F to 120 °F in 14 hrs.

That drop in storage temp represents 269,750 btu/14 = 19,268 btuh. If your boiler and storage are in the heated space, then 269,750 btu = 44.6 lbs of wood at 20% MC and 400F flue temp (6050 btu/lb), or a little over 3 lbs of wood per hour. If outside the heated space, you probably could downgrade that to 55.7 lbs of wood, same parameters, or 4 lbs of wood per hour (80% assumed efficiency in the boiler transferring heat to storage and/or heat demand).

 

[huffdawg]

My storage tank drops from 185 °F to 120 °F in 14 hrs.

That drop in storage temp represents 269,750 btu/14 = 19,268 btuh. If your boiler and storage are in the heated space, then 269,750 btu = 44.6 lbs of wood at 20% MC and 400F flue temp (6050 btu/lb), or a little over 3 lbs of wood per hour. If outside the heated space, you probably could downgrade that to 55.7 lbs of wood, same parameters, or 4 lbs of wood per hour (80% assumed efficiency in the boiler transferring heat to storage and/or heat demand).

Thanx for the calculations Jim , that seems like a good way to figure out the heat loss of a home or building . I'll have to keep track of that when I get back home. I think she is burning more wood than that . I bet my flue temps are quite high. and i'm losing heat up the chimney.
Yes the boiler and tank are in the heated space. The firewood is bigleaf Maple the chart I looked at says 22.7 million btu's per cord

Dale

 

[taxidermist]

HUff,

I don't think that's too bad for a first year burner. Are you still just using 1 storage tank? Remember its not about how fast the wood burns..... it's about how you store the BTU from the wood burned. I can burn a fire box full of ash in less than 2 hrs with 1 fan running 100% That's what these beast do! I let my wife burn her way when i am not home, she may use a bit more wood than me but it works for her and when i get home there is heat and hot water. When i am home I milk the boiler for all its worth and burn less wood and get more heat in storage.

FWIW I burned more wood the first year than any other. I had a hard time because I thought when the fire was going out I needed to load it back up! LOL NOw I have a system and I know what I need to burn to charge storage and when I need to make a fire based on storage temps and outside temps.


Rob

 

[huffdawg]

Ya i'm still on one storage tank . I will get the other one online when I get back home in 8 days. My wife now has more experiece with the boiler than I do . I'm texting her all the time asking her for storage temps ,primary temps ,and DHW temps.LOL .She loads the boiler with wood when she gets home for lunch. Puts the 4 way valve on charging storage then when she gets home after work lights another fire and when it burns out puts the 4 way to the recovery position. to supply loads from storage , and then does the same the next day. The funny thing is she doesn't have any idea what she is actually doing, but she getting it done so I don't give her a hard time.
My iphone is kind of controlling her ,kind of like a remote control. :lol:
Definately a learning curb. But I like it though.
How many square feet do you heat with your 60 and how much wood are you burning ,must be cold there now.

Huff

 

[taxidermist]

Ya i'm still on one storage tank . I will get the other one online when I get back home in 8 days. My wife now has more experiece with the boiler than I do . I'm texting her all the time asking her for storage temps ,primary temps ,and DHW temps.LOL .She loads the boiler with wood when she gets home for lunch. Puts the 4 way valve on charging storage then when she gets home after work lights another fire and when it burns out puts the 4 way to the recovery position. to supply loads from storage , and then does the same the next day. The funny thing is she doesn't have any idea what she is actually doing, but she getting it done so I don't give her a hard time.
My iphone is kind of controlling her ,kind of like a remote control. :lol:
Definately a learning curb. But I like it though.
How many square feet do you heat with your 60 and how much wood are you burning ,must be cold there now.

Huff

Pretty warm winter so far here in MI

I heat 2800sqft house DHW and a 40x 64 polebarn a about 20 hrs a week and so far from Nov 27 I have used 5 face cord of wood 4'x8'x16" The first year I had moist wood 35% to 38% and from mid dec to april I used 12 fc

Last year from Nov 27 to april 15 I used 14 fc I only had heat in the barn from feb.


Rob

 

[rkusek]

Huff you need to automate your 4 way. I finally found a controller on EBay for mine. Think I'm just going to wire it with a relay to charge when boiler circulated is on and discharge when boiler circulator is off and an aquastat on my primary is below like 130. I still haven't plumed my storage but have 5 days off and it is time. Thinking of just 1 tank for this winter since I would really like to mount them vertical next year to save shop space.

 

[stee6043]

About 765,000 if my math is right.

1 BTU = amount of heat needed to make 1 lb of water 1* warmer.

8.3lbsx 500galx185F.

This would only be true if the tank water was useable from 185F down to 0 degres F (which is just this side of impossible).

If the OP can use his water from 185-120 this means useable heat in the tanks is 8.3x500x65 = 269,750.

As stated above, 269kbtu/14 hours = 19,000 btu/hr heat loss, +/-. This is a very reasonable amount of loss for a typical newer home. My own average is right at the 19k range with my max being closer to 40/50k.

I personally can't heat with water below 140 degrees! I do wish I had radiant or panel rads...

 

[rkusek]

Huff you need to automate your 4 way. I finally found a controller on EBay for mine. Think I'm just going to wire it with a relay to charge when boiler circulated is on and discharge when boiler circulator is off and an aquastat on my primary is below like 130. I still haven't plumed my storage but have 5 days off and it is time. Thinking of just 1 tank for this winter since I would really like to mount them vertical next year to save shop space. 19,000 btu per he doesn't seem that bad.

 

[huffdawg]

Huff you need to automate your 4 way. I finally found a controller on EBay for mine. Think I'm just going to wire it with a relay to charge when boiler circulated is on and discharge when boiler circulator is off and an aquastat on my primary is below like 130. I still haven't plumed my storage but have 5 days off and it is time. Thinking of just 1 tank for this winter since I would really like to mount them vertical next year to save shop space. 19,000 btu per he doesn't seem that bad.

I still have to tie my boiler into my house which is about 2800² ft. the heat loss calculation on it is 20,000 btu per hr.

What make is your 4 way Huskers mine is an ESBE. 1-1/4" ,how much did you pay for your valve actuator?
Today the wife said the boiler burnt 20 pieces of wood in four hours. full fire box.
Is a four hour burn time with Eko 40 comparable to yours Stee and Huskers>
And where do you guys have your fan speed, primaries and secondaries set at?

 

[rkusek]

Huff you need to automate your 4 way. I finally found a controller on EBay for mine. Think I'm just going to wire it with a relay to charge when boiler circulated is on and discharge when boiler circulator is off and an aquastat on my primary is below like 130. I still haven't plumed my storage but have 5 days off and it is time. Thinking of just 1 tank for this winter since I would really like to mount them vertical next year to save shop space. 19,000 btu per he doesn't seem that bad.

I still have to tie my boiler into my house which is about 2800² ft. the heat loss calculation on it is 20,000 btu per hr.

What make is your 4 way Huskers mine is an ESBE. 1-1/4" ,how much did you pay for your valve actuator?
Today the wife said the boiler burnt 20 pieces of wood in four hours. full fire box.
Is a four hour burn time with Eko 40 comparable to yours Stee and Huskers>
And where do you guys have your fan speed, primaries and secondaries set at?

I have the same 4 way valve bought from a guy on Hearth. I found the ESBE 60 series controller on Ebay in Germany. It cost 67 Euros and 11 more to ship it. I believe it ended up being right at $100 US dollars. The auction started at 15 Euros I believe. I thought i was going to get it dirt cheap but I'm just glad to get it. Very nice guy selling it too. Called him after about 3 weeks and he bent over backwards checking tracking numbers sending me emails with updates. Finally got it about Jan 5. If you are searching on Ebay make sure your check worldwide, I don't think you will ever find one on the US site. I have to run a 240V line to it however. ESBE customer service confirmed that it will work fine on 240V 60hz (instead of 50Hz), just run faster I believe. I don't see one on Ebay now except for the $429 one that was there 2 months ago and it is a proportional model. I will keep my eyes open for you.

4 hours burning full tilt is probably about right, it must not be idling at all. With the mild weather we have been having and storage not connected yet, I only burn when it is 25 or less at night. If it's above 30 during the day, I've been lazy and letting the heat pump and solar gain keep the house warm saving my wood for the the cold days. With a cold house, cold shed, cold boiler, and 700ft (350x2) of cold 1.5" UG lines I only get about 5.5-6 hrs on a load of wood but the boiler is only idling for the last couple hrs. Today, I had the house at 71, shed at 68+, and stuffed it full of wood at 12:30pm before going to work. When I got home at 10:30pm it was 5 degrees out, the house was still 67 (heat pump hadn't kicked on yet, set @65), shed was 62, boiler was 147, and had a layer of coals left. So that was 9hrs+ maintaining temp on a pretty cold day. My house is 2200 sqft ranch, basement is same footage, partly finished, and kept about 5 degrees cooler. R19 walls and R49 (19 fg & 30 blown) ceilings. Shed is 30x60x14 with R19 walls & R38 fg ceiling. House just has a W/A coil in the air handler of the heat pump. Shed just has a homemade heater from an old Rheem condenser. I don't even have to run the fan just circulate water through it to keep the shed warm. I run my fan speed at 70% all the time, which I believe gives longer burns (no storage). I used to run it at 50% but that seemed to take longer to get things up to temp when everything was cold and might have contributed to more "huffing & puffing". 70% seems to be were I can just leave it all the time and get good results. I haven't touched my primaries or secondaries for a couple years since I get good gasification. I believe the primary was 1/4", 3 turns on secondary, and the shutter on the fan is about half closed.

My Slantfin heatloss calcs were right at 35,000 for the main floor and slightly less for the basement on a 0 degree say if I remember correctly. A day like today with an afternoon high of 20 and a overnight low of 5 seems to be more like 40,000 btu/hr average for the whole house based on my observations.

 

[huffdawg]

Looks like your heating a lot more square feet than I am and in a colder region . Right now it is -10 °C which is usually about as cold as it gets here. and most of time the cold spells dont last for more than a couple weeks.
they sold the valve actuator for the Esbe at the place where I bought it, it was aroud $300. so I will see if I can find a deal like yours. Do you think this one would work.
http://www.sdsmarket.com/Esbe_ARA663_3_Point_Floating_Motor_Actuator_p/ara663.htm

I will be able to get a more acurate figure on houses btu consumption after I get the heat goin there . then calculating btu loss from the storage tanks.

cheers

 

[jebatty]

What advantage do you see with a 4-way for zones/charging vs a hydraulic separator tank charging arrangement? I use a modified hydraulic separator, have low temp radiant, and there never is a real immediate need for very high temp water. But if there was, high temp to the tank arrives very quickly and is available to meet demand.

At Deep Portage, which needs 140F+ water, and often into the 150-160F range, a 4000 gal tank is used as a hydraulic separator. Again, hot water is delivered to the tank and available quickly to meet heat demand calls.

DP also uses a Tekmar controller and proportional 3-way valve for return water protection on its Wood Gun E500.

 

[huffdawg]

What advantage do you see with a 4-way for zones/charging vs a hydraulic separator tank charging arrangement? I use a modified hydraulic separator, have low temp radiant, and there never is a real immediate need for very high temp water. But if there was, high temp to the tank arrives very quickly and is available to meet demand.

At Deep Portage, which needs 140F+ water, and often into the 150-160F range, a 4000 gal tank is used as a hydraulic separator. Again, hot water is delivered to the tank and available quickly to meet heat demand calls.

DP also uses a Tekmar controller and proportional 3-way valve for return water protection on its Wood Gun E500.

Hi Jim . I hope thats your name . I have two 500 gal . storage tanks located about 20' away from my boiler and Buffer tank or hydraulic separator if you want to call it that. which is 150 Gal. The 4 way is between them and its used so I can draw the hot water from the top of storage (recovery) or send hot water to the top of storage to the hydraulic separator (charging).
Also I think I would have had two have two pumps on the same line ,one that would send it to storage and one that would send back to the hydraulic separator.

Huff

 

[HeatFarmer]

I personally can't heat with water below 140 degrees! I do wish I had radiant or panel rads...

Maybe it's me, or my ultra-leaky house & yet-to-be insulated supply pipes, but I'm finding I have to supply my panel rads at 160º to keep them warm. They are just hot to the touch. Return water temps are 140º This appears to be within the design specs for these types of rads. I am hoping over time to be able to shave off the supply temps to conserve tank temp. But I'm not sure when that will be.....

 

[rkusek]

Looks like your heating a lot more square feet than I am and in a colder region . Right now it is -10 °C which is usually about as cold as it gets here. and most of time the cold spells dont last for more than a couple weeks.
they sold the valve actuator for the Esbe at the place where I bought it, it was aroud $300. so I will see if I can find a deal like yours. Do you think this one would work.
http://www.sdsmarket.com/Esbe_ARA663_3_Point_Floating_Motor_Actuator_p/ara663.htm

I will be able to get a more acurate figure on houses btu consumption after I get the heat goin there . then calculating btu loss from the storage tanks.

cheers

That Esbe looks like the new version of mine. It's 24vac too which will be nice. Can't beat that price either. I might read up to see if I can use a 10x small transformer to get the 240vac from the 24vac I will already have. I have a primary loop not a hydraulic separator. 4 way either charges tank or discharges from it.