Help with Stovepipe Clearance

[Clarkbug]

Ok, so I have definitely overlooked something on my boiler install. Im sure it wont be the last thing that I forget about, but this now has me a little worried.

The Varm sits up on a stand that also holds the ash drawer. Where I currently have it in my basement, there is an existing 4" concrete pad, so the actual bottom of the boiler is elevated quite a bit from the basement floor. The problem is that the pipe connection comes off the top of the boiler and turns horizontal is only about 6" before I hit the bottom of my joists. Not good. I had thought I could slap a heat shield on there (something like this: http://www.imperialgroup.ca/stove_stoveboardsheatshields.cfm?c=346 ) but I dont know if thats going to be enough to be safe.

Does anyone have any ideas about what I can do to help make this work for me? Im guessing I definitely need the stove shield, but do I have to start smashing out the concrete pad in my basement too? (Cause that would really make for a bummer of a weekend.....

Any help is much (and urgently) appreciated!

 

[stee6043]

Can you run "class a" pipe directly off your boiler? This may help the pipe clearance issue. But what is the required clear height above the boiler itself? I'd be as concerned about that.

 

[ewdudley]

... The problem is that the pipe connection comes off the top of the boiler and turns horizontal is only about 6" before I hit the bottom of my joists. ...

Does anyone have any ideas about what I can do to help make this work for me? Im guessing I definitely need the stove shield, but do I have to start smashing out the concrete pad in my basement too? (Cause that would really make for a bummer of a weekend.....

Any help is much (and urgently) appreciated!

It looks like you may be out of luck in NY in the case of a solid fuel appliance where 12 inches is the minimum even with heat shielding:

http://ia700304.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.ny.mechanical/ny_mechanical.pdf

Please see section 308 and see if you think I'm reading it correctly.

--ewd

 

[Gasifier]

Just my opinion.

First. Do not take any chances. You are to close to your floor joist. Second, what is code in your area?

If you can meet code. Tear out the concrete pad. (Or, can you place your boiler somewhere else not on the pad and run your piping a little further?) At any rate get it down on the conrete floor to gain that four inches. Then, you are still to close for single wall pipe. You may have to go single wall out of the boiler, but then immediately switch to double wall insulated pipe as soon as you can after you come out of the boiler. You want your horizontal run and the elbow to be insulated pipe. Do not leave your joist exposed. I would suggest you sheetrock the ceiling with 5/8" rock, at least where the pipe is going to be under your floor joist, and for several feet on both sides. I would even suggest you use two layers of 5/8" rock. That will give you a fire rated protection. You do not want to take any chances. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but now is the time to do it. Safety first.

With the double wall insulated stainless you can hold your hand a half an inch away from the pipe when you have temperatures of 500 degrees on the inside. The pipe itself is very hot to the touch. But you can hold your hand a half an inch away from it for an extended period of time. You can not do that with single wall pipe. And you should not put single wall pipe near any exposed wood or other combustible material. Just my opinion. What is code in your area? Make sure you meet it. Be safe, and good luck with your install.

 

[Gasifier]

One possible solution for you.

You will probably think I am crazy, my wife did, and you will probably be right. My wife was. :cheese: But, I needed more clearance for the tank that I bought. I got a good deal on a large storage tank with an ASME rating. It was the right diameter(36") to get through my window in the basement. And standing it up will get me better stratification of hot and cold water. This also saves me a ton of floor space compared to laying it down. Problem was it was to tall. I knew this before I bought it. So, I decided I would buy it anyway and make the necessary room. I rented a concret floor saw with a diamond tip blade. Cut a square out of the floor to required size. Rented a jack hammer and busted it up. Hauled out the concrete and dug down with a pick axe and shovel to required depth. Then poured myself a new floor at bottom of hole with rebar inforcement that I tied up. Then made a rebar inforcement cage for the walls so they would all be tied together. Built my forms and poured the concrete walls myself. Took me a while, and a lot of work, but now I have my tank down in the hole and lots of room on top for insulating. So yes, I know, I am crazy. But all the shorter tanks I could find were S.S. and cost a fortune. I took my time and enjoyed the project. Now I have a 375-400 gallon storage/buffer ;-) tank and it only takes up about 5 foot square area in my boiler room.

You would only need a few more inches to meet code if you take out the 4" pad and go down, say another 4 inches. Heck, you might as well gain a few more inches than that and go six inches. Make sure you reinforce your concrete under your boiler, just for peice of mind. This would delay your start up. But, when you were done, it would be safe and you would be happy. In my opinion you should still sheetrock the ceiling above your pipe. One way you could do it without having to switch boilers. Good luck man.

 

[bpirger]

There is a double walled metal "shield" that you can acquire or fabricate and place that on the ceiling on top of the 5/8 rock. Make sure there is an air gap between the metal layers....then heat should never reach the sheetrock. But, remember, your home owners insurance will really dictate what you are going to have to do, and the code fellow. I'd think the gasser chimney shouldn't really get that hot, and with Class A insulated pipe, and a double wall metal shield, and the 5/8 rock....you really won't have to worry or wonder as you are falling asleep at night.... But you STILL have to make the insurance and code folks happy....

My garn chimney just a couple of feet from the back of the Garn (insulated) never gets very hot....so it is nothing like a single wall pipe.....BUT you still want to do everything you can...

 

[Clarkbug]

Thanks for the replies all.

EW, I read that code as the distance for the appliance itself, not necessarily the stovepipe. The section I did see there referred me to 310.8.4, which I didnt see as existing... Not cool. (Literally)

The boiler comes with a piece of pipe that is in the shape of an "L", made of welded steel. Its probably 1/8" thick at least. So I cant get that in double wall, but I can put the heat shield I posted a link to over it, which is what I intend to do. I can almost hit my wall thimble with this pipe, but its a little bit off, so Im going to need to get a few adjustable elbows it looks like in order to get things to line up properly.

After reading here and some other places on the web, it looks like Ill be smashing out the concrete pad with a 10 lb sledge this weekend. That will get me at least 4 more inches. It also looks like Ill be getting some 5/8" fire code sheet rock and making a mini-ceiling above this. So two layers of that now gets me down another 1 1/4", since I guess thats technically combustible, right? I may end up putting on the sheet rock, and making some of the sheet metal shields on top of that.

The boiler itself sits on a stand that holds an ash pan, and has some nice level-y legs. If its really serious, I can take that to my local welder guy and have him cut a few inches off of the bottom, then re-weld the level-y legs back into it. That could get me a few more inches of clearance, but would make me significantly more broke also.

I dont want to be unsafe, but I also dont want to go crazy trying to gain a fraction of an inch here or there if its not really necessary.

I believe I have the clearance to the boiler itself, but Im honestly going to have to check on that now that its been brought up....

I cant smash out too much of the floor itself since we have a REALLY high water table, and that would really just be asking for trouble. I think that modifying the stand would happen before I would take down the entire floor.....

 

[hiker88]

Gassifer,

I don't want to hijack this thread but it sounds like you are the guy I need to talk to.

I have a similar plan to install my chimney. My plan is to have the boiler in the basement, and the chimney in the garage (isokern) chimney. I want to cut through garage pad, dig down about 60 inches, pour a reinforced pad and start the chimney there. Then I will punch through basement foundation wall into chimney area giving me at least 18 inches clearance to combustibles (stove pipe to bottom of joists).

I'd love all the details on your project or pics. Please feel free to PM.

Thanks!

 

[bpirger]

You might want to rent a demo hammer for a couple of hours....it might make things a whole lot easier and cleaner....

 

[Clarkbug]

I may have to go grab one later today, but first I need to go move the boiler off of the pad, which will be a PITA to do. Once thats done, Ill give it a smack or two and see how easy it wants to come apart on me. Then it might be rental time depending on how that goes.

 

[bpirger]

Most likely too late, but placing 4" pvc on the edge of the pad may let you slide it right off on the pipe. Have a couple of them. I was able to roll my big Garn around this way quite easily. I used a floorjack to lift up the end and get the pipe under....surprisingly simple.

 

[Clarkbug]

Well, today was slab day. Or anti-slab day I guess. So Ill provide photos, since everyone loves photos!

Tools of choice ended up being a 10lb sledge, a 10lb drilling hammer, one big chisely thing, a prybar, 5 gallon buckets, and a yellow garden cart from tractor supply. It went surprisingly easily, except for the actually hoofing it out of the basement.

However, as you can see the builders decided that they didnt want to waste that concrete by pouring an actual floor *facepalm*

So, I now get to dig that out some and pour a slab in there. I thought about just putting a patio block or something under where it will sit, but then every time from now until we sell this place Ill be angry at myself for that. Not that I needed another project right now...

 

[Gasifier]

Nice work Clarkbug. Time for a beer. Or five. :lol:

 

[Clarkbug]

Thanks! Not really what I wanted to do to the basement for my boiler install, but I guess it will make everyone happier.

Actually having some AppleJack right now. (Nope, not the cereal) From a place out in Valatie, NY. Good stuff!

Now figuring out how many bags of quickcrete its going to take to fill in that hole, and I figure I should put up a few sheets of Type X sheetrock first...

 

[Gasifier]

Good. You will feel much better about that. Take every precaution you can. Where are you in upstate New York? I am on the Canadian border.

 

[Clarkbug]

Where are you in upstate New York? I am on the Canadian border.

Im about an hour North of Albany as the crow flies. so upstate to probably most folks, but definitely not to you

 

[Gasifier]

Clarkbug. How are you making out on your project man? Not enough time in the day is there. Keep us posted.

 

[Clarkbug]

Meant to get a reply in last night, but just was dog tired.

Poured some new slab last night, hand mixed 13 bags of Quickrete. Had a buddy helping with the mixing, and my wife did all of the screeding/troweling. It went pretty smoothly and only took a couple of hours. Sheeting is over the slab and its hardening up right now. Im going to pipe up my oil tank tonight (hopefully) just so there is some way to provide heat if we need it. Then this weekend Im going to put up some sheetrock (thinking maybe cement board?) and a heat shield and muscle the boiler and tanks into position.

Not enough hours in the day and and at this point BTUs in the air! I need fall to hold off for a few more weeks for me...

 

[Gasifier]

For up in my neck of the woods anyway, it looks like for the next four or five days it is going to be nice weather. Hopefully you will get your wish. Good luck with the install.

 

[Clarkbug]

Yeah, but I need to spend one of the nice days mowing my lawn! Ugh. Hopefully its the last time for that at least.

Thanks for the well wishes, Ill post more pics/info as I have them.

 

[Clarkbug]

Been traveling a lot for work lately, so no time for updates here. Figured I would post the "done" pics for my clearance issues, since I said I would.

That should be pretty good I would think as far as shielding would go, but if anyone sees anything else they think I should be looking for, please let me know!

 

[Gasifier]

That looks great Clarkbug! Good pics. That should suffice. But please tell me you are going to double rock the ceiling in that whole area where your boiler is. That will make me feel better. The three most important things when doing anything. 1. Safety 2. Safety and 3. Safety. :cheese: