How come US stoves don't heat water anymore?

[John Ackerly]

I just came back fro Europe and was absolutely amazed at the range of choices the consumer has. Wood stoves with heat exhangers that pipe hot air to different rooms, lots of automated air controls that reduce particulates and increase efficiency, and lots of stoves that also heat water for space heating. How come there are no such stoves on the US market? Several manufacturers I've spoken to say there is nothing in the EPA regulations or Method 28 that would preclude a stove that heats water becoming certified. Anyone have an opinion on this?

 

[RNLA]

I personally would love the alternate energy source. I like the thought of getting the most out of a wood stove. I have been able to heat "the whole house" before and would like to get there again. I would also like the supplement of hot water without looking like a distillery...

 

[raybonz]

I just came back fro Europe and was absolutely amazed at the range of choices the consumer has. Wood stoves with heat exhangers that pipe hot air to different rooms, lots of automated air controls that reduce particulates and increase efficiency, and lots of stoves that also heat water for space heating. How come there are no such stoves on the US market? Several manufacturers I've spoken to say there is nothing in the EPA regulations or Method 28 that would preclude a stove that heats water becoming certified. Anyone have an opinion on this?

I would think liability would be a factor as when things go wrong the results can be dangerous to health and home.. One other factor is creosote production tends to increase with so much being extracted.. Some have done it successfully though but they seem to be pretty rare...

Ray

 

[begreen]

I suspect it is a combination of factors. These stoves have never been that popular in this country. The first reason is safety. An improperly installed or maintained system has the potential to be a very serious steam bomb. Then there is the point that Ray made about the effect of cooling down the fire and flue gases increasing creosote production. And there is also the fact that modern stoves are designed to keep the firebox quite hot for better combustion efficiency.

But, you can do this if you are careful and start out with a good safe design. It is just more hassle then a lot of people want to go through.

 

[maverick06]

I think the main reason is that as a society only a tiny percentage of people heat with wood, and a tiny percentage of them heat only with wood. The market isnt here for it. OWB are available, but surely aren't a common site. If people really didnt want to afford heating with current sources, and were ok with more work, then maybe it would be a different situation.

people complain about $4 gas, but still drive SUV's

 

[begreen]

Another reason is that in the US a lot of homes do not have hot water heating systems. They are common in Europe and so you see more stoves set up for hw heat there.

 

[mhrischuk]

Leisure Line does it with coal stokers...

http://www.leisurelinestoves.com/Boiler_and_Furnace_Products.html

 

[SolarAndWood]

I would consider a big stove that did both. A boiler with storage seems more flexible though as you aren't locked into the space heater/hot water output ratio.

 

[John Ackerly]

Thanks for those comments and thoughts. I still suspect that some company is going to make a lot of money when they market a stove that ties into a boiler. Systems that combine solar hot water and wood and pellet systems, or just displace fossil fuel boilers, are going to be more and more in demand. Pellet stoves seem especially adaptable in this way and are super common in Europe, without adversely impacting emissions. All over Europe, fossil heating fuels are expensive, so you have a much bigger market for stoves and boilers. If gas stays cheap in the US, it will hold back not only wood heat, but other renewables as well. Maybe once the EPA sets their new emission limits, companies will be willing to start spending for R&D more and bring to market such a stove. Even if the stove just produced a little hot water for domestic water needs, would be great to have in North America. John Gulland, who runs woodheat.org built one for his own house. I'll wait to I can buy one.

john

 

[begreen]

You can get some wood cookstoves with a water jacket.

 

[firefighterjake]

Seems to me that the market is a bit limited . . . folks who want simple wood heat tend to migrate towards woodstoves and woodstove inserts (especially if they have fireplaces).

Folks around here that want whole house heating with the abilityt to set a thermostat and then heat the home with baseboard or radiant floor heating tend to migrate towards outdoor wood boilers . . . although there is a smattering of folks with indoor wood boilers -- some efficient and some not so efficient. I know I gave a long, hard look at the Tarm wood boiler before going the simpler and cheaper route of a woodstove.

That said, I know my old Shenandoah had piping plumbed up on it . . . never connected it up to anything myself though.

 

[gpcollen1]

I think most are missing the why...i think it is because wood has always been cheap and we are not miserly with it in this vast land. Whereas, in other countries, wood is much more valuable and they try and get every bit of value out of it...

 

[FyreBug]

I think most are missing the why...i think it is because wood has always been cheap and we are not miserly with it in this vast land. Whereas, in other countries, wood is much more valuable and they try and get every bit of value out of it...

+1

Also in Europe the cost of heating is exceedingly high compared to North America. Still... Most pellets in Europe comes from here yet it's still a better deal than other options they have.

The government in Europe also subsidize alternative heating by 50% on the appliance, venting and installation. However, most Americans & Canadians would not be willing to buy one of those appliances because:

1) European mindset is different. They'd rather pay much more for an upscale unit (BMW vs Chrysler). Americans are into a 'good deal' where cost is a prime consideration. You cannot buy a wood stove at a Home Depot or Lowes in Europe (or whatever equivalent they have there). Average cost of a decent unit in Europe is $5k. Units can go up to $15K or more depending on what you want. That's a very narrow niche market here.

2) Looks. European value a good looking unit. Many of their appliances use upscale material (stone, cast Iron etc...) and many end up looking like Ferrari's compared to the product offering here. HPBA ran an article recently about the new push for a 'contemporary' look by many American manufacturers. However, these MFG admitted this look is sold primarily in Canada since it is not very popular with the American public yet.

There is no right or wrong in this, just a different mindset. Also, many European MFG have pretty good business going in Europe and when they see how much work it would be to re-design their unit to meet EPA they put it on the back burner.

 

[raybonz]

You can get some wood cookstoves with a water jacket.

I recall reading that Pacific Energy markets water coils as an accessory in Canada but not in USA..

Ray

 

[Loco Gringo]

Maybe for the same reason we have gas/diesel auto engines rather than the simple alternative options. BIG OIL baby!

 

[jatoxico]

Maybe for the same reason we have gas/diesel auto engines rather than the simple alternative options. BIG OIL baby!

Maybe it's my inner Oliver Stone talking but I'm with you. Remember when you could get clean white kerosene for your kero heater cheap? That was done away with supposedly for our safety. Now I know there have been some tragedies but the Japanese heat with these very well using built in safety devices for measuring CO. Wonder if this issue has more to do with $ than anything else.