Ideas on how to add UPS/Battery Backup to Insert stove

[steveg_nh]

Hi all,

I have an Enviro M55 insert. Nice stove, no issues with it, but curious how I could add a UPS/Battery backup unit to my setup. When the power flickers over the winter, it kills the unit, and then it has to cool down and go through it's whole cycle before it starts blowing again. If the power is out a while, since the fan isn't running but the fire is still burning, I get smoke.

So I want to add a UPS to it. Right now, it is plugged into an outlet that is inside the firebox behind the stove. This is wired in metal conduit and has a junction box in the basement. From the junction box, the wire goes to a dedicated breaker in the panel.

I read that having a lead acid battery too close to a pellet stove is a very bad idea (assuming this true), so putting a small UPS behind the stove (hidden from site) sounds like something I should not do.

What options does that leave me, that would be considered acceptable per wiring code? I thought that I could add an outlet in the junction box, for a UPS to plug into, and then take the wire to the outlet in the firebox and take it out of the junction box, put a plug on it (making it an extension cord basically), and then plug that into the UPS. The UPS would be in the basement. I could always remove this setup when I go to sell the house as I'm sure it's not allowed by the code, but I don't see anything wrong or unsafe with this idea.

Thoughts on that approach, or other ideas?

Thanks.

 

[bostonfan49]

Hi all,

I have an Enviro M55 insert. Nice stove, no issues with it, but curious how I could add a UPS/Battery backup unit to my setup. When the power flickers over the winter, it kills the unit, and then it has to cool down and go through it's whole cycle before it starts blowing again. If the power is out a while, since the fan isn't running but the fire is still burning, I get smoke.

So I want to add a UPS to it. Right now, it is plugged into an outlet that is inside the firebox behind the stove. This is wired in metal conduit and has a junction box in the basement. From the junction box, the wire goes to a dedicated breaker in the panel.

I read that having a lead acid battery too close to a pellet stove is a very bad idea (assuming this true), so putting a small UPS behind the stove (hidden from site) sounds like something I should not do.

What options does that leave me, that would be considered acceptable per wiring code? I thought that I could add an outlet in the junction box, for a UPS to plug into, and then take the wire to the outlet in the firebox and take it out of the junction box, put a plug on it (making it an extension cord basically), and then plug that into the UPS. The UPS would be in the basement. I could always remove this setup when I go to sell the house as I'm sure it's not allowed by the code, but I don't see anything wrong or unsafe with this idea.

Thoughts on that approach, or other ideas?

Thanks.

Hi Steveg_nh!
Curious if you have a nearby outlet on either side of your fireplace? My UPS sits about 3' to the right of my insert "backsplash"...that's what I'm calling it. The stoves power cord comes out of the right lower corner of the fireplace (behind) the back piece....runs along the brickwork for 2' and then into the back of the UPS. Perfect setup I believe because the UPS also acts as a excellent surge protector. I also have an LED lamp plugged in where my wife sits and reads.....so if the power goes out, she has enough light to put the stove in shutdown mode.
***In the past 5 years we have never lost power in the initial startup (with lots of smoke in the box) or with a rip roaring M55 flame! I know my natural Chimney draft should suck all the smoke out....I have never forced an outage to test out my draft. One of these days...
Bill

 

[Wilbur Feral]

As BostonFan49 notes, an inexpensive UPS placed on the hearth should do the trick for you. That said, I'll give my standard warnings about UPS systems:

1. If you just want to keep things running for a few seconds of power flickering and/or to give you time to put the stove into shutdown mode (if you're there and know to do it), then a small UPS made for computers, rated for sufficient current draw, will likely work well.
2. If you intend to power your stove for longer than just going into shutdown mode, you will need a UPS rated for several hours of continuous use and capable of supplying the necessary power (varies based on stove, with most energy use happening when the ignitor is on). And equally important, you will need a deep cycle (e.g., marine) battery capable of supplying that power. The batteries in all but very large UPS's won't' have enough reserve to power a stove for longer than a few minutes, so don't depend on that in a power outage. We can power either of our stoves overnight on a deep cycle, 110 AH battery but that's with minimal ignitor use and fairly efficient stoves.
3. If you are going to rely on a combination of UPS and generator during power outages (UPS powering stove when you are "resting" the generator, as we do), make sure your UPS can recharge the battery when on generator power. We once had several office UPS that we had to replace because of this. They would power the office computers well, but once their batteries were gone they wouldn't recharge on "dirtier" generator power. A switch to better UPS fixed this.
4. Test all of this out well in advance of a power outage, particularly if you intend to use your stoves for essential heat. You don't want to find out the flaws in your system when it really matters.

Good luck with your system.

 

[steveg_nh]

Thanks guys.

A few replies...

I wired up the outlet (my electrician did I should say), in the firebox because I didn't want to see the cord outside of the insert. So I really don't want to defeat what I did.

As for running the stove during a power outage, it would just be to let it shut down, and to bridge the times I have to shut off the generator to refuel (for extended outages). Our generator provides clean power so we wouldn't have an issue charging a UPS back up when on generator power.

So what I really want is the UPS hidden, behind the stove, but that seems like a bad idea? I'm surprised to hear that a sealed lead acid battery is actually not sealed, and gives off fumes when charging.

 

[Deromax]

I'm surprised to hear that a sealed lead acid battery is actually not sealed, and gives off fumes when charging.

A sealed battery should not give off fumes in normal operation. It will only do in case of gross overcharging, something that a competently designed charger should not allow.

As for installing an UPS in an enclosed space, I don't think it's a good idea. Maybe an electrician could find a way to legally install it on the electrical line feeding your outlet, in a place that's accessible.

 

[bostonfan49]

Looking at your thumbnail pic, you do have a very clean uncluttered look....so I can see where you might not want to see a cord or the UPS. In my case, the cord pretty much matches my granite and with my black pellet pail and a chair the UPS is hardly noticeable. I assume you have the rail kit, so you could get to the UPS if you had to. I think an electrician could come up with a better scenario.
Good luck, Bill

 

[steveg_nh]

I do have the rail kit yes. I can easily slide it out if needed, as I do it to clean.There is a good air flow behind the insert, but don't want to do anything risky.

 

[articcatbill]

Hi all,

What options does that leave me, that would be considered acceptable per wiring code? I thought that I could add an outlet in the junction box, for a UPS to plug into, and then take the wire to the outlet in the firebox and take it out of the junction box, put a plug on it (making it an extension cord basically), and then plug that into the UPS. The UPS would be in the basement. I could always remove this setup when I go to sell the house as I'm sure it's not allowed by the code, but I don't see anything wrong or unsafe with this idea.
.

I am not an electrician, if you want to do this to code you would need to consult one. I am not sure how to wire this to meet code, but basically in offices and computer rooms we often have UPSs wired into certain circuits. So the UPS powers the entire circuit. In effect this is what you are thinking about doing in your basement, it is simply a circuit with only one outlet on it you want powered by the UPS.

There are a couple ways I can think to do this, that I would think are safe, but probably are not to code. I won't go into them since I am not an electrician and don't feel qualified to give advice on this at all. I think that you are on the correct track with your idea in the basement. Maybe if you google around a but you might be able to find the code on how to do this? I didn't find it in a quick search but might be out there somewhere, just make sure you would use a reputable site.

Only found this in a quick search, method 2 is what it looks like you would want to do:

http://benignblog.com/2011/05/how-to-circuit-ups-with-house-wiring.html

 

[articcatbill]

I also found this link that talks about doing what I think you are would like to do, they are using an inlet receptacle for one side of the circuit. Not say that any of this is to code, but it is a thread on doing a similar thing.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2654996/can-i-make-a-circuit-that-plugs-into-a-ups

 

[steveg_nh]

Thanks. I'll look at what you sent. I do like to do everything according to the rules.

 

[articcatbill]

Thanks. I'll look at what you sent. I do like to do everything according to the rules.

Here is another link that discusses this more closely what they are saying is basically:

house power-> receptacle -> cord -> UPS -> cord -> inlet -> wall wiring -> receptacle -> stove

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-ac-dc/311813-using-electrical-inlet.html#b

This link talks about the possible code ramifications:

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/42844/1.html

Another one that seems relevant:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r24373181-UPS-to-feed-a-dedicated-circuit

One thing to consider if you do this is clearly mark the stove outlet that is it being feed by a UPS. If someone turns off the breaker to the stove and does't realize it is fed by a UPS, well you can clearly see the issue.

Again I am not an electrician just sharing the links I found where others have discussed this topic.

Good luck! Happy reading.

 

[steveg_nh]

Thank you! I just thought about the "inlet" scenario this morning myself. That will make some good reading.

 

[velvetfoot]

I am curious why an insert would have a smoke problem on power loss? Wouldn't the chimney draft take care of that?

 

[steveg_nh]

I think it does actually, for the most part at least. I get a little smoke...the bigger issue is the time it takes for the stove to reset before it starts blowing heat again. It seems like it goes through it's power off cycle, then reignition, then blowing cycle, when the power blips. Seems like 15 min or so before you get hot air again.

 

[brenndatomu]

I am curious why an insert would have a smoke problem on power loss? Wouldn't the chimney draft take care of that?

This is a pellet burner I believe, and it seems many (most, all?) need forced combustion air to burn correctly.
As far as the UPS, I wouldn't want one behind the stove either, heat is bad on electronics and batterys. I haven't looked at the above links but I assume they are suggesting to install the UPS inline with the receptacle. I'd just cut the wire in the basement and wire in a new receptacle to plug the UPS into, then wire a plug on the end of the wire that goes to the fireplace receptacle so that it can be plugged into the UPS. I'd also consider wiring in a remote alarm so that when the power goes off it will alarm by the stove and hopefully give you time to shut it down properly

 

[phil san]

Hi all,

I have an Enviro M55 insert. Nice stove, no issues with it, but curious how I could add a UPS/Battery backup unit to my setup. When the power flickers over the winter, it kills the unit, and then it has to cool down and go through it's whole cycle before it starts blowing again. If the power is out a while, since the fan isn't running but the fire is still burning, I get smoke.

So I want to add a UPS to it. Right now, it is plugged into an outlet that is inside the firebox behind the stove. This is wired in metal conduit and has a junction box in the basement. From the junction box, the wire goes to a dedicated breaker in the panel.

I read that having a lead acid battery too close to a pellet stove is a very bad idea (assuming this true), so putting a small UPS behind the stove (hidden from site) sounds like something I should not do.

What options does that leave me, that would be considered acceptable per wiring code? I thought that I could add an outlet in the junction box, for a UPS to plug into, and then take the wire to the outlet in the firebox and take it out of the junction box, put a plug on it (making it an extension cord basically), and then plug that into the UPS. The UPS would be in the basement. I could always remove this setup when I go to sell the house as I'm sure it's not allowed by the code, but I don't see anything wrong or unsafe with this idea.

Thoughts on that approach, or other ideas?

Thanks.

Do a search for SEC Pellet Stove Battery Backup model sf 709. Been running this since 2008 during numerous outages. UPS and backup batteries
have been running 24/7 for 8 years and still going strong. Powered the unit for 16 hours on #3 setting during one storm. Just plug the stove into it, no electrician needed. Connected to 2 golf cart batteries.
There are a couple of models but will run around $500 for all. Total peace of mind. Your not home, lose power, stove keeps running.


SF 709 interfaces between a heating appliance (wood pellet or alternative fuel stove) and its AC wall outlet. When AC utility power is present, the SF 709 charges a battery and monitors the wall outlet to detect a power outage. At the moment utility power fails, the SF 709 draws energy from a battery and converts it to enable appliance operation. When utility power returns, the SF 709 automatically switches the appliance back to AC wall outlet power. At the same time, the SF 709 resumes charging the battery to return it to full capacity in preparation for the next power failure.

 

[phil san]

Do a search for SEC Pellet Stove Battery Backup model sf 709. Been running this since 2008 during numerous outages. UPS and backup batteries
have been running 24/7 for 8 years and still going strong. Powered the unit for 16 hours on #3 setting during one storm. Just plug the stove into it, no electrician needed. Connected to 2 golf cart batteries.
There are a couple of models but will run around $500 for all. Total peace of mind. Your not home, lose power, stove keeps running.


SF 709 interfaces between a heating appliance (wood pellet or alternative fuel stove) and its AC wall outlet. When AC utility power is present, the SF 709 charges a battery and monitors the wall outlet to detect a power outage. At the moment utility power fails, the SF 709 draws energy from a battery and converts it to enable appliance operation. When utility power returns, the SF 709 automatically switches the appliance back to AC wall outlet power. At the same time, the SF 709 resumes charging the battery to return it to full capacity in preparation for the next power failure.

Also another model, sells even on Amazon Prime. Harmon stoves use this.
Stove Sentry Model Battery Back Up SF512 Pellet Stove

 

[steveg_nh]

Thanks. Never seen anything like those. I will look into them.

 

[phil san]

Thanks. Never seen anything like those. I will look into them.

hey, hows the Enviro m55 insert. Considering new FPI and contemplating Harmon Accentra vs M55. Have read that the M55 with the newer blower are quite loud?

 

[steveg_nh]

Hi there. It throws an amazing amount of heat. I've had a couple of small issues. First the original fan developing a bearing noise. It was replaced under warranty. Also, the agitator in the pot seemed to just wear away, meaning it got smaller and smaller, over time. Not sure why. That was replaced too, but the new one is doing it as well, just slower. They aren't cheap to buy, like $100. Lastly, the upper baffle plate warped a bit. That was replaced as well under warranty but I'm seeing that it is doing it again. It doesn't matter much though to be honest.

I do like the stove, but wish it was quieter. It is still one of the quietest ones out there. It's in my living room, so in hindsight, I'm not sure a pellet stove was the right choice for me because of the noise, but it's way easier than a wood stove. And I do have the rail kit which easily lets me slide it out for maintenance. Would I buy it again? Probably. It's one of the largest inserts you can get, or at least it was when I bought it.