If China was eligible for EPA "Superfund" cleanup status two thirds of China's cities would qualify

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babalu87

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Nov 23, 2005
1,440
middleborough, ma.
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSPEK14476720070612?feedType=RSS&rpc=92

BEIJING (Reuters) - Nearly two-thirds of Chinese cities suffered from air pollution last year and had no centralized sewage treatment facilities, state media reported on Tuesday.

Only 37.6 percent of 585 cities surveyed had air quality "indicating a clean and healthy environment," down 7.3 percentage points from 2005, the China Daily said, citing a report by the State Environmental Protection Agency (SEPA).

Thirty-nine cities, many scattered across the northern coal-rich province of Shanxi and China's northeastern rustbelt province of Liaoning, suffered "severe" air pollution, the paper said.

"The report also found that the ratio of quality water in the major urban areas, either for drinking or industrial use, had dropped by 7.24 percent," the paper said.

Two hundred cities had no "centralized sewage management system" and 187 had no garbage disposal plants, it said.

I know we did our fair share of polluting when we were a growing economy but the world knows better now doesnt it?
 
babalu:
I tried to form an answer to this in one of the other threads dealing with our polluting ways, but I kept getting caught by our volume is greater than any other country. This article states my case better than I could. The USA does dump more pollution into the air than anyone else, but we are the largest producers of product. You can not use per capita data to compare, the raw number of people in China dilutes the data, not only that, their standard of living is so low compared to the US, it is ridiculous. Let's take gross data. How many of their cities and landmass would not pass our minimum standards? How many of their people live in substandard conditions as compared to the US, (sorry folks, we have lots of them)? Based on our public health standards, what percentage of our population live in extreme unsanitary conditions, like sewer and fresh water systems? And on and on and on.

If we add India, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, who's trying to do something about the environment? Chemicals and processes specifically banned in Europe and America are unregulated in Asia. We have some major sites that are a mess, but we don't have whole regions that should be banned from human habitation. Ohio's burning rivers, the love canal, thri-cities in Washington, Rocky Flats in Colorado are things of the past in the US. When do you think we will learn what China and Asia has done to their land? When The Sea of China lights up and burns from pollution, will we take things seriously?
 
Yep Rich. I have given up on this country kicking itself for doing a better job of every thing it does than any other country on the planet. Every since I can remember just because they lived somewhere else people here thought they were doing it better. Never forget the SOHO cab driver brought here, shaved and dressed in a nice suit that every body they introduced him to thought he was an Oxford grad just because of the accent.

The U.S. and Canada don't have to take a back seat to anybody in the world on anything.

Both need to burn their politicians at the stake. But if we did we would do one hell of a job at that too.
 
But China is thinking about making cars that burn on Hydrogen. They must be cleaner than us. You guys don't know WHAT your talking about! ;-)
 
Sounds like typical NIMBY. Remember, our great cleanups have been largely in the last 35 years, with 150 years before that of pretty dirty chit.

Always keep in mind that a lot of that pollution which they are choking on is from making plastic toys for us to buy cheap.

Although we are now "a global economy", it is not a competition as to what countries we can blame for not being up to our current EPA standards. We have control over certain things, that being:
1. most of our domestic industries, autos, goods, etc.
2. our trade laws....

We look the other way (largely) while Wal-Mart and everyone else manufactures goods at factories that do not meet even basic international or environmental standards. Why are we not rising up against this? Is it not our problem? Aren't those goods "tainted" since we are in effect paying for the factory?

Tough calls......but the solutions are not in acting "holier than thou" and trying to prove that we are more evolved than someone else. Certainly it is true that China, India and similar countries are on a steep growth curve with all the attendant evils. BUT, underneath this all, a much larger % of their populations are thriving, living better, etc. -

In American we accept that we cannot swim in the river, eat the fish or exert ourselves outside on days when we are warned about it. We are addressing the problems - thank goodness! But we have a long way to go - check out the asthma rates in the US....and of course, the earlier posts about the % of tainted water in entire states from coal, etc.

As to where we are now, the EPA says "40 percent of our surveyed waterways are still too polluted for fishing and swimming.". While some may be proud about that number, I am not.

Our great solution to the garbage problem is to bury it, where it ends up leaching into our groundwater supplies!

In other words, we are nowhere NEAR a sustainable economy or ecology in this country. We are, however, headed in the right direction thanks to many forces which are making certain that business does not get away with the old status quo (not being responsible for their entire waste stream).
 
Webmaster said:
Sounds like typical NIMBY. Remember, our great cleanups have been largely in the last 35 years, with 150 years before that of pretty dirty chit.

Always keep in mind that a lot of that pollution which they are choking on is from making plastic toys for us to buy cheap.

Although we are now "a global economy", it is not a competition as to what countries we can blame for not being up to our current EPA standards. We have control over certain things, that being:
1. most of our domestic industries, autos, goods, etc.
2. our trade laws....

We look the other way (largely) while Wal-Mart and everyone else manufactures goods at factories that do not meet even basic international or environmental standards. Why are we not rising up against this? Is it not our problem? Aren't those goods "tainted" since we are in effect paying for the factory?

Tough calls......but the solutions are not in acting "holier than thou" and trying to prove that we are more evolved than someone else. Certainly it is true that China, India and similar countries are on a steep growth curve with all the attendant evils. BUT, underneath this all, a much larger % of their populations are thriving, living better, etc. -

In American we accept that we cannot swim in the river, eat the fish or exert ourselves outside on days when we are warned about it. We are addressing the problems - thank goodness! But we have a long way to go - check out the asthma rates in the US....and of course, the earlier posts about the % of tainted water in entire states from coal, etc.

As to where we are now, the EPA says "40 percent of our surveyed waterways are still too polluted for fishing and swimming.". While some may be proud about that number, I am not.

Our great solution to the garbage problem is to bury it, where it ends up leaching into our groundwater supplies!

In other words, we are nowhere NEAR a sustainable economy or ecology in this country. We are, however, headed in the right direction thanks to many forces which are making certain that business does not get away with the old status quo (not being responsible for their entire waste stream).

Web:
This is the problem. You try and make it too simple. We don't make them do anything, in fact we make them do nothing. We don't own the plants or the products. They can steal anything they want from us, and we are powerless, or are CD's, DVD's, Software not our property, let alone all the other pirated products.

Yes we have progressed in the last 50 years (more generous than your 35) because our knowledge and understanding have grown. We may have known a problem existed, but we actually worked at finding a problem and then went after it.

The NIMBY complaint doesn't work with me. Our worst problems are in my backdoor, but we are doing something with it. Remember we are destroying our chemical and biological warfare thirty miles from me.

If you and I want to stop things, stop being greedy. Stop buying the crap. Stop getting the good deal cause you don't want to waste your hard earned money. The third world in not in a steep growth curve???? The exploiters of the system are well aware of what can be done and needs to be done, but they are only concerned about their own profits. Those are the few in the billions. GREED


I am not looking the other way. I do not shop at the big box stores, only when there is no alternative. like buying stove gaskets, or "Made in America Pellets". I can't afford the fancy cars or designer clothing or most modern appliances, so I am stuck buying things that work and do a great job but were mostly made in North America.

Our standards are so high, that in many places in the world our worst is their best. When we can't safely use resources, we are basing that on standards that only Northern Europe has set for themselves. 80% of the world would like to have water as clean as ours. I will say the river two miles away would yield a carp or catfish I could not eat, but three miles away there are ponds with rainbow trout that are clean and edible and fun to catch. How many in Asia can say that, how many in Africa can say they have clean water to drink?

You are trying to paint a one scheme picture, it can't be done. The only thing that each of us can do is keep the environment in our sphere of influence as clean as possible. I can not change what they are doing in the Far East, but if they have no market for their product, they will stop making it. I needed a pair of shop shoes, I knew I had some old Redwings, somewhere, so instead of going out a buying a new piece of crap, I dug them out. Works great, cost me some time, no polyesters gave up their lives to put covers on my feet.

I personally would re-think defending the world against the USA. We are not anywhere near perfect, but each time I get someone to do a little better, I have made a step in the right direction. Blasting a system may raise the flag, but reaching out to someone and changing their patterns works wonders.

I did something I never thought I would do last week. I joined a food Co-op. Yep, a good old hippie co-op. Thought there were folks there who knew better what I should be eating than me. But most importantly they draw upon resources locally. I might not ever see arrugala on the list, but I will see local produce and meats and beans that I can not buy in the big box groceries. I will share some time and pack the sacks and boxes and feel better that I am not contributing to trucking produce across the planet. That's a little step, but I was very proud after so many years that I will pick up my share and be happy with what I have.
 
UncleRich said:
Web:
This is the problem. You try and make it too simple. We don't make them do anything, in fact we make them do nothing. We don't own the plants or the products. They can steal anything they want from us, and we are powerless, or are CD's, DVD's, Software not our property, let alone all the other pirated products.

Yes we have progressed in the last 50 years (more generous than your 35) because our knowledge and understanding have grown. We may have known a problem existed, but we actually worked at finding a problem and then went after it.

Yeah, the west has been a dumping ground for awhile.

By the way, when it comes to China....Americans, Europeans and even a lot of Japanese own the plants or are "partners" in them. In truth these are usually the better plants. And certainly they don't have to make plastic toys....and workers here don't have to go to work either, but the alternative is often poverty or (in other countries) starvation. On the same subject, we don't make the columbians harvest coca and produce tons of cocaine, but they certainly would not do it if we didn't suck it up our noses.

Apropo of how well we are doing, this story came out in the last few hours:
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Marines drank tainted water for 30 years: CDC
Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:23PM EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - As many as 75,000 people may have drunk water contaminated by dry cleaning fluid at the U.S. Marine base at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on Tuesday.

The contamination lasted for 30 years until the affected wells were closed. Marines and their families drank the contaminated water during base assignments of an average of 2 years, the CDC said.

The water was polluted with tetrachloroethylene, also known as PCE, a dry cleaning solvent that has been linked with cancer, the CDC said.

"The Department of Health and Human Services has determined that PCE may be a carcinogen," the CDC said in a statement.
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As I have said before, my daughter is an environmental attorney currently working on water issues. Things are bad...very bad. Entire watersheds are polluted beyond fixing (it will take decades and hundreds of millions).

We are only at the very beginning of trying to clean up this stuff - not the time to pat ourselves on the back, rather a time to work harder to hold the polluters responsible for past and current actions.

Congrats on any steps you are taking personally.

In terms of simplifying it too much, it might be the problem with trying to settle complex issues with threads on a bulletin board. Actually, I agree that it is complex, which is exactly why I add other facets to the discussion beyond Bab saying "they are bad, we are good".
 
Webmaster said:
Actually, I agree that it is complex, which is exactly why I add other facets to the discussion beyond Bab saying "they are bad, we are good".

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
Were you not the one that stated China was making big steps toward becoming a more efficient/cleaner country?
Yes but I would imagine if I went digging I would find that thread deleted.

Sure there are plenty of bad things that US companies and businesses did in the past but at least it looks like we are turning a corner while China is getting worse by the day.
What went on at Camp Lejeune should be resolved by firing squad, sad that the people fighting for our freedom were treated in that way.

There isnt a demand for cheap toys, the demand is for the BIG profits. Toy prices (to take one example) are pretty much the same, scale wise, as they were when Little Tikes were made in the states. The companies manufacturing them just see MUCH larger profits now.
 
I agree that demand is for big profits. But we also have to take responsibility when things are done in our name. We are (largely) the stockholders of Wal-Mart, Mattel and all the other companies which are driving the production in China. I personally don't go to stockholders meetings nor am I an activist who writes letters telling them to do the right thing...perhaps I should.

I suspect if you and I had a choice, we would agree to pay $1.00 more for a $20 item if we knew it was made relatively "greener". But we usually don't know such a thing, nor do we have a choice.

No thread is deleted, and yes - China has put higher MPG and other standards into place and they are planning for a greener economy....not because they are "better" than we are, but because:
1. They have 4x as many people, so it is quite evident what is going to happen if they don't get it together.
2. They can look back at our mistakes (we didn't always have that luxury).
3. More technology exists today which allows them to plan

There is no way I would claim that China is clean.....it is a sewer! However, we have to put that in the context of the largest and quickest economic growth in the history of the world....most of it within the last 20 years.

My point (on the other thread) was simply that they are putting stricter standards (MPG, for instance) into play, while our politicians have kept ours the same...they actually got WORSE....over the last 25 years. I don't see where getting worse fits your declaration that we found the problem and are making it better! The car makers were in DC last week arguing against a rise in CAFE standards.

I think we are on the same side, other than the fact that I think we can do BETTER, not worse. As to how we can make that choice regarding the excess profits of the plastic toys (or tool, etc.) makers, that is in the realm of trade policy. It would be easy for our government to require certain conditions in order for Favored Nation Trading Status (and the low or non-existent tariffs that accompany it) to be based on whether or not the countries or industries in question tow the line.

One Chinese casting company sent me a pic - and there they were spray painting their stoves and fireplaces out in an open courtyard! No paint booth or anything else to capture pollution. A sad situation. I can't blame the peasants who started or run the business, they are just looking to eat like everyone else. But then again, it is unfair to American, European and other manufacturers who spend millions to clean up their factories.

An interesting aside is that a lot of the new production of solar panels, PV and Water, are coming from joint ventures in China. Luckily, this type of high tech operation can easily be set up here also, and there are LOTS of new plants in the USA making the stuff.....and innovating on the technology. It seems as if some breakthroughs are imminent in terms of cost and efficiency.
 
Webmaster said:
My point (on the other thread) was simply that they are putting stricter standards (MPG, for instance) into play, while our politicians have kept ours the same...they actually got WORSE....over the last 25 years. I don't see where getting worse fits your declaration that we found the problem and are making it better! The car makers were in DC last week arguing against a rise in CAFE standards.

Because our consumption went DOWN.
No matter what the cement-heads in D.C or Detroit decide is "best" for the consumer, the American people for the most part have got the message about fuel consumption.
They should drop the speed limit or at the least enforce it. I have been getting MUCH better mileage at 65 than I was at 75-80. Driving at 80+ MPH is part of the morning and afternoon commute for many people I see on the roads each day.
2+ MPG may not seem like a lot but with 60+ miles a day for a commute it adds up, in addition it is a much more relaxing drive to work.
 
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