Info On NG or LP Boiler w/radiant Heat!!

[Hillbilly80]

Hello All. I'm very new to this kind of stuff but this place seems to be a very informative site. I've done some homework on which routes I want to go, and I've really narrowed my choice down to going with Radiant Floor Heat, with some type of boiler. The house will be 1800 sq ft. Ranch with 9ft poured wall basement. Construction should begin sometime in January. Yeah I don't like that thought of building in the winter but with rates so low I have a good opportunity and we are taking it. With everything warranted I'm not worried. So, the biggest question is which type of boiler to use. I've researched Coal and Wood Gasification systems quite a bit. I've found Coal is very hard to get where I live w/out getting 22 tons brought in at once which will not work for my 3.5 acre lot with no buildings to put it away in. As far as wood goes. Lets just say I've never cut wood, never had an interest in cutting wood, don't have a truck or trailer or chainsaw. So that kind of rules out wood for me. Then I started researching natural gas and propane gas boilers, but cannot really find any good opinions on how good they are for the type of heating I want. The house will come with a NG or LP Furnace of my choice using Forced Air which I really do not want to have in my house. From what i've learned its not very efficient, dirty air, not as comfortable as radiant heat, etc, etc. I just want to use the duct system for my central air in the warmer months. My biggest concern and question is if anyone uses or knows anyone with this type of system and how much NG or LP they are using a month in these boilers. I mean, would the boiler use less gas than a furnace forcing air? Any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated by me and family. Thanks.

 

[ewdudley]

You gotta love natural gas. With a modulating condensing boiler, home-run piping, and low-temperature floors, panels, or radiators it's hard to beat. And it takes up so little space in the house. But then you're gonna pay whatever the price is.

http://www.pmengineer.com/Articles/Cover_Story/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000187323

 

[heat4steve]

Hello All. I'm very new to this kind of stuff but this place seems to be a very informative site. I've done some homework on which routes I want to go, and I've really narrowed my choice down to going with Radiant Floor Heat, with some type of boiler. The house will be 1800 sq ft. Ranch with 9ft poured wall basement. Construction should begin sometime in January. Yeah I don't like that thought of building in the winter but with rates so low I have a good opportunity and we are taking it. With everything warranted I'm not worried. So, the biggest question is which type of boiler to use. I've researched Coal and Wood Gasification systems quite a bit. I've found Coal is very hard to get where I live w/out getting 22 tons brought in at once which will not work for my 3.5 acre lot with no buildings to put it away in. As far as wood goes. Lets just say I've never cut wood, never had an interest in cutting wood, don't have a truck or trailer or chainsaw. So that kind of rules out wood for me. Then I started researching natural gas and propane gas boilers, but cannot really find any good opinions on how good they are for the type of heating I want. The house will come with a NG or LP Furnace of my choice using Forced Air which I really do not want to have in my house. From what i've learned its not very efficient, dirty air, not as comfortable as radiant heat, etc, etc. I just want to use the duct system for my central air in the warmer months. My biggest concern and question is if anyone uses or knows anyone with this type of system and how much NG or LP they are using a month in these boilers. I mean, would the boiler use less gas than a furnace forcing air? Any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated by me and family. Thanks.

A natural gas boiler will be cheaper to heat with than propane. The cost to heat with propane and oil are bout the same. Whether you use natural gas or propane you can get a high efficiency boiler but it will be quite pricey to install unless you are willing to do some of the work yourself - actually installation will be pricey from my standpoint regardless. I installed a Knight condensing boiler two year ago - it is a beautiful thing. Unlike older boilers which run at max load whenever their on, it can regulate its heat output from the max output of 150,00 Btu/ht down to 20,000 Btu/hr. In addition, it can reach efficiencies of higher than 90%. It is the size a small two draw filing cabinet. Another feature is that it can be setup to run an indirect hot water heater. We can run two showers, a washing machine and a dischwasher and never run out of hot water. Many manufacturiers make this kind of boiler (Weil, Buderus, Knight to name a few) In addition, the energy credit of $1500 can be applied to thes type of boilers. I went with this type of setup when a bought my old farmhouse with the expectation it would be a beast to heat and it is costing over $4000 to heat with propane at $1.90/gallon (can't get nautral gas where I am). With wood I am expecting to heat the home for signicantly less about $1500 which will provide me with a payback in a little over 4year if I can keep from buying all the cool accesories. As you mentioned wood heating is not for everyone but for mecost is a driver. If price is not an issue go geothermal. Good luck with your decision. One other thing, a furnace should't necessaitly be less eficient to heat with than a boiler other than zone heating allow you to tailor what part of the house you heat and when a thing costly to achieve with forced air.

 

[AK13]

A BTU is a BTU. So it shouldn't matter whether you heat your house with radiant or with a furnace, assuming that the efficiencies of the equipment is equivalent. I believe that the efficiency claims for radiant floor heating systems are all related to the fact that you are supposed to be able to keep the heating setpoint lower because the warm floor causes increased comfort at lower indoor air temperatures. Lower indoor air temps means lower delta T which means less heat loss for the house and higher "efficiency". So your boiler and furnace (assuming units with identical efficiencies) would use the same amount of gas. But the radiant system might enable you to keep the house cooler which would save gas. Of course with the radiant system you can't really do any day or night setback so there may be a penalty there depending on how well insulated your house is.

Do have NG at your house? You keep saying NG or propane, but you either have NG or you don't. Here in NH that would make a huge difference. NG is the cheapest fossil fuel to heat with for people who have it, but propane costs TWICE as much as NG to heat with. Propane costs 50% more than oil also which is why so many people in this area heat with oil instead of propane.

 

[Hillbilly80]

Yeah I was confused on the whole Natural Gas thing. I would have to be Propane. But wouldn't using Radiant Floor Heat work way better when you have 10ft ceilings, and a 14ft vaulted in the great room?

 

[ewdudley]

Yeah I was confused on the whole Natural Gas thing. I would have to be Propane.

Screw propane. Except for lighting a coal fire, then I love it.

If you can get a rig to unload 2500 lb pallets of bagged coal, then go for it. Maybe they'll have a high-lift or something on the job when they build the house that could handle them. Middle of January with hard ground should be piece of cake. Eighteen pallets per load, 42"x48", 50" or so high. Park them out of the way and keep the sun off the plastic and they'll sit outside for decades. With 3 1/2 acres there must be a spot that would work.

 

[Hillbilly80]

Yeah I was confused on the whole Natural Gas thing. I would have to be Propane.

Screw propane. Except for lighting a coal fire, then I love it.

If you can get a rig to unload 2500 lb pallets of bagged coal, then go for it. Maybe they'll have a high-lift or something on the job when they build the house that could handle them. Middle of January with hard ground should be piece of cake. Eighteen pallets per load, 42"x48", 50" or so high. Park them out of the way and keep the sun off the plastic and they'll sit outside for decades. With 3 1/2 acres there must be a spot that would work.

Man if I could go with Coal I would be all for it. I dont know how to go about finding it if its available. and about how much would that cost? and Last?

 

[Hillbilly80]

wow I just found a dealer that deals Anthracite Coal by the skid or bags close to my home. Im really entertaining this idea. Whats my best way to go with Coal?

 

[ewdudley]

wow I just found a dealer that deals Anthracite Coal by the skid or bags close to my home. Im really entertaining this idea. Whats my best way to go with Coal?

If you're looking at a boiler system, it seemed to me that Keystoker and Harmon are well developed. Check out http://nepacrossroads.com/ for people that know more about it all. Maybe find a local Keystoker dealer and find out if you have a neighbor that will show you their system.

--ewd

 

[heaterman]

Well if you are building new you have a golden opportunity to do it right from the ground up. If I were in your shoes I would take great pains to get the building envelope as well insulated and tight as I could. Think 2" foam under the basement slab, Insulated concrete form basement walls, R25 minimum in the sidewalls and R50 in the ceiling. Then go with a top notch gas boiler like a Viessmann or a Triangle Tube Prestige and use tube in the basement slab and either some type of radiant floor upstairs or steel panel radiators which allow you to dial each room to whatever temp you want. Have you installer size the radiators and the tubing layout to heat the house with no more than 140* water. Doing so will allow your boiler to work at maximum efficiency for the whole heating season. Spending an extra $10K now for extra insulation will probably eliminate the need to think about having to invest in an alternative fuel heating system costing at least that later on.

AFA forced air vs radiant heat is concerned, you are correct in your assumption that radiant is more efficient, especially with high ceilings. It's not at all uncommon to find a 10* temp difference between floor and ceiling with a typical forced air system. That excessive temp at the ceiling translates directly to higher heat loss due to the greater temperature differential between ceiling and attic. Another thing that is often overlooked is the amazing efficiency of moving btu's with water as opposed to air. A 1" copper tube will easily move the same amount of btu's as an 18"x8" duct. If the system is designed correctly you can probably move all the heat your house will ever need with less than 100watts of electricity. Compare that to a typical F/A system that needs roughly 5-600 watts to move the same amount of heat. As an example, we are using a Wilo variable speed circulator (model 1.25x3-25) in a new boiler/radiator system we are installing in a church. The system is designed to provide 320,000 btu's and through good design and this circ, we can do it using less than 200 watts of electricity. A comparable forced air system would require 10x that.

 

[Hillbilly80]

Thanks for the replies. It looks like im going with the Keystoker coal boiler being a dealer close to me sells them and deals anthracite coal. Then im having a.I.m. radiant heating design a radiant floor heating package for me. The guy im workimg with from AIM is awesome. Seems like he knows his stuff really well. As far as the insulation goes I will have 2x6 studs on the exterior of my house and plan on doing underslab insulation in the basement and then like the board insulation outside the exterior concrete walls. Will have to do some more research on insulation. I've been told sprayfoam on exterior walls is the way to go.

 

[Hillbilly80]

Well if you are building new you have a golden opportunity to do it right from the ground up. If I were in your shoes I would take great pains to get the building envelope as well insulated and tight as I could. Think 2" foam under the basement slab, Insulated concrete form basement walls, R25 minimum in the sidewalls and R50 in the ceiling. Then go with a top notch gas boiler like a Viessmann or a Triangle Tube Prestige and use tube in the basement slab and either some type of radiant floor upstairs or steel panel radiators which allow you to dial each room to whatever temp you want. Have you installer size the radiators and the tubing layout to heat the house with no more than 140* water. Doing so will allow your boiler to work at maximum efficiency for the whole heating season. Spending an extra $10K now for extra insulation will probably eliminate the need to think about having to invest in an alternative fuel heating system costing at least that later on.

AFA forced air vs radiant heat is concerned, you are correct in your assumption that radiant is more efficient, especially with high ceilings. It's not at all uncommon to find a 10* temp difference between floor and ceiling with a typical forced air system. That excessive temp at the ceiling translates directly to higher heat loss due to the greater temperature differential between ceiling and attic. Another thing that is often overlooked is the amazing efficiency of moving btu's with water as opposed to air. A 1" copper tube will easily move the same amount of btu's as an 18"x8" duct. If the system is designed correctly you can probably move all the heat your house will ever need with less than 100watts of electricity. Compare that to a typical F/A system that needs roughly 5-600 watts to move the same amount of heat. As an example, we are using a Wilo variable speed circulator (model 1.25x3-25) in a new boiler/radiator system we are installing in a church. The system is designed to provide 320,000 btu's and through good design and this circ, we can do it using less than 200 watts of electricity. A comparable forced air system would require 10x that.

Im wondering how you achieve R25 in side walls and R50 in the celing. My studs will be 2x6' and if I use the dow board I can go to R22 but I kinda want o.s.b. wrap which leaves me at R19 and the ceiling will be R38. How can you get 25 in the walls and 50 in the ceiling?

 

[AK13]

One way to get R25 walls would be closed cell foam in your 6" joists. Or fill the wall cavities with cellulose and wrap with 1" of foam board.

Is your ceiling insulation going into the rafters or on the deck? 15" of cellulose on the deck will get you to about R-50.

 

[ewdudley]

Im wondering how you achieve R25 in side walls and R50 in the celing. My studs will be 2x6' and if I use the dow board I can go to R22 but I kinda want o.s.b. wrap which leaves me at R19 and the ceiling will be R38. How can you get 25 in the walls and 50 in the ceiling?

How? That's easy:

"The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars."


--ewd

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Well if you are building new you have a golden opportunity to do it right from the ground up. If I were in your shoes I would take great pains to get the building envelope as well insulated and tight as I could. Think 2" foam under the basement slab, Insulated concrete form basement walls, R25 minimum in the sidewalls and R50 in the ceiling. Then go with a top notch gas boiler like a Viessmann or a Triangle Tube Prestige and use tube in the basement slab and either some type of radiant floor upstairs or steel panel radiators which allow you to dial each room to whatever temp you want. Have you installer size the radiators and the tubing layout to heat the house with no more than 140* water. Doing so will allow your boiler to work at maximum efficiency for the whole heating season. Spending an extra $10K now for extra insulation will probably eliminate the need to think about having to invest in an alternative fuel heating system costing at least that later on.

AFA forced air vs radiant heat is concerned, you are correct in your assumption that radiant is more efficient, especially with high ceilings. It's not at all uncommon to find a 10* temp difference between floor and ceiling with a typical forced air system. That excessive temp at the ceiling translates directly to higher heat loss due to the greater temperature differential between ceiling and attic. Another thing that is often overlooked is the amazing efficiency of moving btu's with water as opposed to air. A 1" copper tube will easily move the same amount of btu's as an 18"x8" duct. If the system is designed correctly you can probably move all the heat your house will ever need with less than 100watts of electricity. Compare that to a typical F/A system that needs roughly 5-600 watts to move the same amount of heat. As an example, we are using a Wilo variable speed circulator (model 1.25x3-25) in a new boiler/radiator system we are installing in a church. The system is designed to provide 320,000 btu's and through good design and this circ, we can do it using less than 200 watts of electricity. A comparable forced air system would require 10x that.

Have to agree a system like this is hard to beat. Far more efficient than forced air. Too bad north america went the forced air route instead of hydronic. AFA the R25 goes 6" SIPS will give you an R44, tough to beat that performance in a 6" wall. Impossible if it is a traditional stick build, in the same 6" space that is.