Innovation in Pellet Stoves

[TonyVideo]

I would like an app. I can set the stove for a lower temp and be gone all day and when I am 30 minutes out raise the temp so it is warmer when I get home. Also if I forget to turn it down I can at least check. How about letting you know if there is an error when gone. I can check the notification and either restart the stove or shut it down. From an efficency standpoint it can let me know if I am burning more pellets than my average. It can forecast with weather info what my expected use will be for the next 7 days. I can't store all my pellets indoors and have limited space inside so I can bring in the number of bags needed. I log how many I have purchased and how much I dump in and see if I need to buy more before the run on pellets at the end of the year. It can send an email to my dealer to drop off a ton or two when I get low. Monitors fan speed and give you an early warning when things start slowing down or intermittent. I am not in the room 100% of the time. A weeky event log emailed to you. All these things can increase efficency. I travel for work and would love to see how my wife is doing with the stove. It would give her piece of mind that I can still monitor the stoves and tell her when she needs to do something. She just wants heat.

 

[SwineFlue]

I would like an app. I can set the stove for a lower temp and be gone all day and when I am 30 minutes out raise the temp so it is warmer when I get home. Also if I forget to turn it down I can at least check. How about letting you know if there is an error when gone. I can check the notification and either restart the stove or shut it down

There are plenty of internet-enabled thermostats that will do that today. Those who desire it can have it without adding complexity to the stove.
. .

 

[Tonyray]

I would like an app. I can set the stove for a lower temp and be gone all day and when I am 30 minutes out raise the temp so it is warmer when I get home. Also if I forget to turn it down I can at least check. How about letting you know if there is an error when gone. I can check the notification and either restart the stove or shut it down. From an efficency standpoint it can let me know if I am burning more pellets than my average. It can forecast with weather info what my expected use will be for the next 7 days. I can't store all my pellets indoors and have limited space inside so I can bring in the number of bags needed. I log how many I have purchased and how much I dump in and see if I need to buy more before the run on pellets at the end of the year. It can send an email to my dealer to drop off a ton or two when I get low. Monitors fan speed and give you an early warning when things start slowing down or intermittent. I am not in the room 100% of the time. A weeky event log emailed to you. All these things can increase efficency. I travel for work and would love to see how my wife is doing with the stove. It would give her piece of mind that I can still monitor the stoves and tell her when she needs to do something. She just wants heat.

Sure.....printout spreadsheets out the back end, software updates, alerts when pellets sellers within 50 miles have a sale etc....
your deff sound like a 21st century "apps for everything but breathing" kinda guy and so Hope for you sake it all comes true someday......
seriously, some good ideas but there goes the cost of the stove again...

 

[TonyVideo]

To increase sales manufacturers have to appeal to a younger user who are used to expect it. I am 53 and see how quick my 4 year old grandson picks up on tablets and doing things he likes. As much it is nice to say I wish things were simple the younger set to them something like this is simple. Right now I would say pellet stoves primarily appeal to the 40 plus crowd.

 

[Bioburner]

Sure.....printout spreadsheets out the back end, software updates, alerts when pellets sellers within 50 miles have a sale etc....
your deff sound like a 21st century "apps for everything but breathing" kinda guy and so Hope for you sake it all comes true someday......
seriously, some good ideas but there goes the cost of the stove again...

No really. The app will be doing the work. The Bixby has everything relating to stove operations, Bixcheck 2.71. Any Harman dealers or anyone with the DDM tool? Tell us how its ported etc.Add a smart internet thermostat and you have everything addressable via internet.

 

[Tonyray]

To increase sales manufacturers have to appeal to a younger user who are used to expect it. I am 53 and see how quick my 4 year old grandson picks up on tablets and doing things he likes. As much it is nice to say I wish things were simple the younger set to them something like this is simple. Right now I would say pellet stoves primarily appeal to the 40 plus crowd.

have 8 grandkids myself, 7 are 3 and under] and amazed at what they can do video games and tablets also..
Pellet stove appeal for many is lack of wanting to pay 4x as much for oil or gas to heat the're homes.
that said, I don't think real young kids today would turn down a new bike just because it's simple and doesn't run on Electronics...
primarly due to the fact that they have access to plenty of other things that Light up at the stroke of the're fingertips.. Why else do tech kids today STILL want to play organized sports? Nothing digital there except the scoreboard...
It's not ALL about the visual world... but we digress here....
actually, just bought a new Harman in November so even if they invent one that opens the bag and fills the hopper, won't be upgrading anytime in the next 10 yrs or so.

 

[Mt Bob]

Just some thoughts."accordian" heat exchanger-from quadrafire.I believe.Piazzetta uses this style.TJ is talking about combustion efficiency,something we all should be concerned with,long term.Many us and can stoves use us made controllers.Touch screens usually expensive to repair.Compact,layered smt circuit boards usually cost prohibitive to repair.More bells and whistles lead to cuts somewhere else(price competition),can anyone say"GM recall"?Most european stoves have phone capability and data connectors.Rika (and others) had/have daily,weekly/weekend internal programming systems(common in europe),nobody liked it(over here),but if can be done with an app,would be great?Just another step.Just some thoughts.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

The 1993 Quadrafire 1000 has a finned aluminum heat exchanger that protrudes into the firebox with an equal number of fins in the air plenum.

This is certainly not new technology, but this sort or arrangement requires more cost to build as compared to the round tube welded tech.

 

[Mt Bob]

The 1993 Quadrafire 1000 has a finned aluminum heat exchanger that protrudes into the firebox with an equal number of fins in the air plenum.

This is certainly not new technology, but this sort or arrangement requires more cost to build as compared to the round tube welded tech.

I thought it was quad,wasn't totally sure,thanks.

 

[Tonyray]

Wonder if being too close to massive heat would be counter productive for digital screens and such?

 

[tjnamtiw]

Wonder if being too close to massive heat would be counter productive for digital screens and such?

There's no massive heat on a pellet stove except inside and at the exhausts. Mount it off to the side. Still hung up on apps, I see.
No need for expensive touch screens. A keypad would suffice with the menu on the screen or perhaps just a row of LED'S? Y'all are getting too way out there. Did they legalize MJ in New England????

Extruded aluminum tubing is being used everywhere now and would not be all that expensive. Not saying that's the answer though. Some serious thermodynamics have to be considered to suck all the heat out of the exhaust. Just saying that is where the savings could be massive along with better control of burning. I watch my stove flame go from just barely out of the pot before another load drops to almost up to the top after a load drops. The heat variations cannot be conducive to the best heat transfer. A metering system improvement is in order.

 

[SwineFlue]

A metering system improvement is in order

Definitely needed to get efficiencies anywhere near those for liquid/gaseous fuels. I think it would require using an always-rotating, variable speed auger motor instead of the on-off ones we have today. The more even burn would also be more conducive to the lambda sensor someone mentioned previously.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Definitely needed to get efficiencies anywhere near those for liquid/gaseous fuels. I think it would require using an always-rotating, variable speed auger motor instead of the on-off ones we have today. The more even burn would also be more conducive to the lambda sensor someone mentioned previously.

I agree, SF, totally. If you've ever looked at the stoker system on new coal stoves, they have a sweeping motion pusher that feeds new coal, which would be another option and would eliminate the inconsistencies associated with varying pellet lengths changing the bulk density of what's being conveyed by the auger. I hesitate to mention weigh scales, which I used in injection molding, because someone will want to create an app for it

 

[SwineFlue]

the inconsistencies associated with varying pellet lengths changing the bulk density of what's being conveyed by the auger.

I wonder if shorter pellets would make for a more consistent feed... the fuel would be more like a fluid.

 

[hoverwheel]

Our life is frittered away by detail. An honest man has hardly need to count more than his ten fingers, or in extreme cases he may add his ten toes, and lump the rest. Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quicksands and thousand-and-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify. Instead of three meals a day, if it be necessary eat but one; instead of a hundred dishes, five; and reduce other things in proportion. -HDT

 

[Arti]

First there is Combustion Efficiency. This is how much of the fuel is turned into heat.

Next is AFUE which is a measure of how much heat contained in the source of energy is actually transferred to the living area. Sort of a combination of how well the fuel is burned and how well the heat exchanger grabs the heat.

If you go much higher than 80 percent AFUE then things get messy as the exhaust starts to condense. Slightly acidic water mixed with the by products of wood smoke is not desirable. Do I really want a catalytic converter and a condensate drain on my parlor stove?

Also to get to the higher efficiencies a more complicated and tighter heat exchanger is needed,Much harder to clean. This was experimented with in the oil burner industry with poor results. The maintenance costs on these high efficient oil burners was very high.

Another waste of energy is running an inefficient electric motor 24/7. Sort of a catch 22 Efficient motors are expensive and if they fail this will quickly wipe out any Electricity savings . An example is Thelin that uses a very efficient electric motor system, Replacement cost is 4 to 5 Hundred for a motor compared to 200 for other stoves. Does this save any money, I'm not good enough at math to answer that.

We are trying to achieve efficiencies that the modern gas fired furnaces enjoy however that isn't comparing apples to apples.
Gas inherently is a cleaner burning fuel also it is more consistent in composition. When burning pellets we get different types of fuel from every supplier and even the pellets from the same supplier will likely be of different composition. When you mix in corn or other items then keeping a consistent air fuel ratio is more complex.

I've seen the gas furnace industry mature from Light the pilot and watch it burn at 60 % efficiency to 95 % squeeze all the heat out that we can.
Also a lot of the newer gas furnaces use higher efficiency electric motors and better electronics to control them. This results in higher efficiency and more even heat. This is at a higher cost to the end user.
Can we increase the efficiency of our Pellet Stoves, Yes i believe so however it has to be of some benefit such as lower cost of ownership, more dependable or create a more comfortable living space.

Sort of like one of my elders said, This modern stuff sure is nice when it works right..

Off my soap box now It's time to fix that Red Check Engine Light in my truck and see what that is going to cost me !!

 

[tjnamtiw]

I wonder if shorter pellets would make for a more consistent feed... the fuel would be more like a fluid.

The smaller the better as far as consistent feed, I would think; however, from experience, I doubt that we could rely on any manufacturer to maintain a tight band. Don't forget Third Shift and Monday mornings!

 

[tjnamtiw]

Our life is frittered away by detail. An honest man has hardly need to count more than his ten fingers, or in extreme cases he may add his ten toes, and lump the rest. Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quicksands and thousand-and-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify. Instead of three meals a day, if it be necessary eat but one; instead of a hundred dishes, five; and reduce other things in proportion. -HDT

Thoreau had a pellet stove? Wow! Bet it had round tubes!

 

[tjnamtiw]

First there is Combustion Efficiency. This is how much of the fuel is turned into heat.

Next is AFUE which is a measure of how much heat contained in the source of energy is actually transferred to the living area. Sort of a combination of how well the fuel is burned and how well the heat exchanger grabs the heat.

If you go much higher than 80 percent AFUE then things get messy as the exhaust starts to condense. Slightly acidic water mixed with the by products of wood smoke is not desirable. Do I really want a catalytic converter and a condensate drain on my parlor stove?

Also to get to the higher efficiencies a more complicated and tighter heat exchanger is needed,Much harder to clean. This was experimented with in the oil burner industry with poor results. The maintenance costs on these high efficient oil burners was very high.

Another waste of energy is running an inefficient electric motor 24/7. Sort of a catch 22 Efficient motors are expensive and if they fail this will quickly wipe out any Electricity savings . An example is Thelin that uses a very efficient electric motor system, Replacement cost is 4 to 5 Hundred for a motor compared to 200 for other stoves. Does this save any money, I'm not good enough at math to answer that.

We are trying to achieve efficiencies that the modern gas fired furnaces enjoy however that isn't comparing apples to apples.
Gas inherently is a cleaner burning fuel also it is more consistent in composition. When burning pellets we get different types of fuel from every supplier and even the pellets from the same supplier will likely be of different composition. When you mix in corn or other items then keeping a consistent air fuel ratio is more complex.

I've seen the gas furnace industry mature from Light the pilot and watch it burn at 60 % efficiency to 95 % squeeze all the heat out that we can.
Also a lot of the newer gas furnaces use higher efficiency electric motors and better electronics to control them. This results in higher efficiency and more even heat. This is at a higher cost to the end user.
Can we increase the efficiency of our Pellet Stoves, Yes i believe so however it has to be of some benefit such as lower cost of ownership, more dependable or create a more comfortable living space.

Sort of like one of my elders said, This modern stuff sure is nice when it works right..

Off my soap box now It's time to fix that Red Check Engine Light in my truck and see what that is going to cost me !!

OK, we'll just give up. That solves that problem! Back to sleep.

 

[hoverwheel]

Thoreau had a pellet stove? Wow! Bet it had round tubes!

He certainly did.

It was a first generation model. He had to make the pellets himself. They were a little larger than second gen pellets - usually ~ 16" long and a few inches thick. Usually chopped out of whole logs.

 

[Lake Girl]

I'm sitting on the fence on this discussion. I do like the KISS principle but I do have a stove with programmable capabilities. Since it is a primary heat source, I don't use many of the programmable features. I haven't played much with its set up either so I'm sure I can get better efficiencies. I haven't wanted to mess with a system that works but I do have a back-up now so I'll be looking at that soon. I still have to load it, empty ash and clean it. To change any of those factors, it would require more energy use and more points of potential failure. I'm here, it's here, this works just as it is...

For fuel consistencies, the Heartlands are one of the smaller and more consistent pellets I have used. They do produce great heat. The Trebios have a much greater variation in pellet length and have bridged with the fire going out if the hopper is not "stirred".

From what I have seen, the more complicated the system, the more potential weak points (read more dollars on build and repair). As Bob mentioned, the GM recall on ignition switch failure that has resulted in 12 deaths comes to mind. While my Aveo is not on that recall list, my key also got stuck in the ignition and had to be replaced along with the wiring harness to the transmission. GM is not alone in recalls due to electric/electronic system failure. Can you imagine driverless cars?

While computers have enabled many advances in many areas, it seems to create a dependency that I'm not 100% comfortable with. How many of us have run into a person who is unable to make change and relies on the register telling them (pretty basic math skill)? Do you remember family phone numbers or do you rely on the programmed numbers? We have a great big experiment going that involves our minds and bodies. Brain dysfunction and disease has increased, obesity is on the rise along with autoimmune disease. While many of us can cope with power outages, is that true of the general population? GMO and food safety is becoming a bigger issue. This winter is an example of what can happen when you rely on modelling and statistics - NG, propane and pellet shortage. Your illusion of control with those apps may be just that, an illusion....

 

[chken]

I wonder if shorter pellets would make for a more consistent feed... the fuel would be more like a fluid.

Hmmm... if you continue along that train of thought, pretty soon, you're just feeding sawdust into the fire pot!

 

[hoverwheel]

Hmmm... if you continue along that train of thought, pretty soon, you're just feeding sawdust into the fire pot!

Somewhere in my readings, I came across a thread where someone running an industrial sized pellet boiler commented that they "grind" the pellets essentially into dust and blow them into the boiler.

I could have misunderstood what he was describing though.

 

[Lake Girl]

I think that may have been a malfunction of a feed system but could be wrong iceguy 4 did try adding some sawdust from his shop into pellets for his boiler.

Dust is very explosive - explosion/fire here at local biomass believed to be from a static spark generated off a conveyor belt. Piled biomass can generate a fire too. Local bark piles from the pulp mill have caught fire in the past and they had to bring in water bombers to put it out...

 

[peirhead]

Ok seems we are moving out of the realm of pellet stoves, so here's a link to a sawdust stove...I like it!!