Insert or Free Standing?

[BeachBumm]

In my quest to purchase my 'last wood stove' I saw the Blaze King Ashford 25 insert & the Pacific Energy Alderlea T5 insert. The concept is good, as they don't take up much space, but they seem a little low (bending over to load), and I wonder how well they actually heat without the fan running.

I like the idea of an insert, as my short chimney problem is easier to fix, as I don't have to build up the chimney as high as I've been figuring.

They look terrific, but I need them to work "easily", not just look good.
Any info here is greatly appreciated.

 

[Highbeam]

Performance will be inferior to a freestanding unit.

 

[BeachBumm]

Performance will be inferior to a freestanding unit.

Are inserts more-less a glorified fireplace?

 

[Highbeam]

Are inserts more-less a glorified fireplace?

They are better than that. If your choice is insert or fireplace, an insert is far superior but the insert is a compromise and less effective than a freestander. They really are very similar to a woodstove but are heavily crippled by being placed in the masonry firebox. They require blowers to reach their full potential, they are surrounded by a cold masonry wall on 5 of the six sides that is usually placed on an exterior wall. They are usually quite small because they must fit into a fireplace hole.

In your case with a small one room cabin, the space savings is very attractive and the masonry stealing heat might actually be a good thing.

I would estimate that an insert is about 85% of the way between a fireplace and a freestander.

 

[BeachBumm]

They are better than that. If your choice is insert or fireplace, an insert is far superior but the insert is a compromise and less effective than a freestander. They really are very similar to a woodstove but are heavily crippled by being placed in the masonry firebox. They require blowers to reach their full potential, they are surrounded by a cold masonry wall on 5 of the six sides that is usually placed on an exterior wall. They are usually quite small because they must fit into a fireplace hole.

In your case with a small one room cabin, the space savings is very attractive and the masonry stealing heat might actually be a good thing.

I would estimate that an insert is about 85% of the way between a fireplace and a freestander.

Do they always need the blower? The sound of the motor is a big negative to me. When the wind blows the power lines down & we are out of electricity for 1- 3 days (pretty normal around here in the winter) these inserts don't work very well?

 

[Highbeam]

Do they always need the blower? The sound of the motor is a big negative to me. When the wind blows the power lines down & we are out of electricity for 1- 3 days (pretty normal around here in the winter) these inserts don't work very well?

At my current house I first heated it with a relatively modern Lopi freedom bay insert in a large, internal to the house, masonry fireplace. The insert stuck out onto the hearth a good bit, like 6 inches. The sound of the blower was irritating, inconvenient, embarrassing, and not pleasant. I hated that blower being on all the time but without it, the house (single story, 1700 SF) would not stay warm, just the area right around the insert. Even on low, the blowers on that Lopi were not quiet.

Many/most inserts can safely be run without the insert but at reduced output. You can use this to your advantage if you need less heat. You could even oversize the insert so that you can run it less efficiently without the blower.

When I sleep I don't want to hear anything. I don't even like to hear the refrigerator run. We were all very happy to see that insert go away and enjoy the silent heat of a freestander.

This is one of the reasons that we don't use a pellet stove even though our region enjoys extremely low prices for high quality heating pellets.

 

[BeachBumm]

At my current house I first heated it with a relatively modern Lopi freedom bay insert in a large, internal to the house, masonry fireplace. The insert stuck out onto the hearth a good bit, like 6 inches. The sound of the blower was irritating, inconvenient, embarrassing, and not pleasant. I hated that blower being on all the time but without it, the house (single story, 1700 SF) would not stay warm, just the area right around the insert. Even on low, the blowers on that Lopi were not quiet.

Many/most inserts can safely be run without the insert but at reduced output. You can use this to your advantage if you need less heat. You could even oversize the insert so that you can run it less efficiently without the blower.

When I sleep I don't want to hear anything. I don't even like to hear the refrigerator run. We were all very happy to see that insert go away and enjoy the silent heat of a freestander.

This is one of the reasons that we don't use a pellet stove even though our region enjoys extremely low prices for high quality heating pellets.

The sales guy explained that most blowers are front & center which gets in the way of the natural convection & that the PE inserts have the motor on the side to let the inlets and outlets be free of obstruction. That could be a plus if it works. Do you think most of the heat is actually coming from the glass vs the steel? The concept of an insert is confusing as it is only a thin tin box covering the steel firebox. It would seem that a very large portion of the heat escapes back in the firebox and up the chimney or our the walls of the fireplace. Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[BKVP]

The blowers for the AF25 are mounted to two "sleds" and slide to the very rear of the appliance, under the firebox. Might I suggest you examine one with a flashlight in hand, then you can also ask the dealer to plug in the fans a run them are different rpm's to hear the sound levels.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Do they always need the blower? The sound of the motor is a big negative to me. When the wind blows the power lines down & we are out of electricity for 1- 3 days (pretty normal around here in the winter) these inserts don't work very well?

Inserts will heat the room they are in very well without a blower. But the blower does increase the efficiency by reducing the amount of heat escaping the structure. If your chimney is within the thermal envelope of the structure it's a lot better than if only the front face of the chimney is inside. It's also important to have a well installed and insulated block off plate. A deep cycle marine battery could run small fans on low speed for many days if you're concerned with power outages.

Also, squirrel cage blowers are quieter/more efficient than simple round fans yet many stoves use the inferior round fans. Probably to save a few bucks. Go figure.

 

[BeachBumm]

If your chimney is within the thermal envelope of the structure it's a lot better than if only the front face of the chimney is inside. It's also important to have a well installed and insulated block off plate.

What did you mean by 'if only the front face of the chimney is inside'? Also are you speaking of the top cover (block off plate) or the open hole right above the insert firebox?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

What did you mean by 'if only the front face of the chimney is inside'? Also are you speaking of the top cover (block off plate) or the open hole right above the insert firebox?

Some chimney's are entirely within the thermal envelope of the structure (until they exit the roof). Some chimneys have the small dimension as an exterior wall, some have the large dimension as an exterior wall and some chimneys are entirely outside except for the front face where the fireplace opening is.

 

[BeachBumm]

Some chimney's are entirely within the thermal envelope of the structure (until they exit the roof). Some chimneys have the small dimension as an exterior wall, some have the large dimension as an exterior wall and some chimneys are entirely outside except for the front face where the fireplace opening is.

Got it. Mine is an outside mortar chimney.

Can you pleas explain "well installed and insulated block off plate"?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Got it. Mine is an outside mortar chimney.

Can you pleas explain "well installed and insulated block off plate"?

To prevent room heat from escaping up the chimney. Installed near where traditional damper goes. One of the professionals here can probably elaborate more if necessary as I haven't installed an insert for over 20 years and the rules/techniques are always changing.

Question for the pro's:

Is it permissible to insulate around the insert with Roxul? Or do they need an air gap? I can see how that could prevent much heat normally lost to the exterior masonry.

 

[Highbeam]

The concept of an insert is confusing as it is only a thin tin box covering the steel firebox. It would seem that a very large portion of the heat escapes back in the firebox and up the chimney or our the walls of the fireplace. Am I understanding this correctly?

You're right. What's worse is that the stove dumps heat by being surrounded by moving cold room air. If the air around the stove is stagnant and hot (trapped air inside the shell) then heat transfer is reduced and more goes up the chimney. Like an air cooled engine, without air movement it will not be able to dump heat fast enough and you will have to reduce the burn rate. Compare this to a huge blower that strips tons of heat from the appliance and you can increase the burn rate as well as efficiency.

Unless you have enough room to insulate between the old fireplace and the insert's outer shell then you will be dumping massive amounts of heat into the masonry. Some will return to the house through the part of the masonry inside the home but if your now warm masonry is hanging outside then you will be trying to heat the outdoors too!

I think the salesman was playing you with regards to the location of fans making a difference. You want them accessible for maintenance and replacement but when fan blades stop spinning they don't block air flow. Most insert fans are now squirrel cage style but axial fans still work great but all will make a racket on higher speeds. Yes, test the sound levels as some are worse than others. Some will rattle, buzz, and hum. Some have a super low speed that is barely audible but the air flow is barely anything.

Most of the radiant heat from an insert is coming from the glass. All stoves put out tons of heat through the glass. It was the saving grace of my slow-to-warm up soapstone stove that I could at least warm my palms in front of the window while waiting hours for the body of the stove to heat up.

You're not a bad candidate for an insert. The princess insert would be a good fit. Pretty sure it uses a single squirrel cage fan on one side and sticks out into the room for some cooking and power outage heat.

 

[BeachBumm]

Unless you have enough room to insulate between the old fireplace and the insert's outer shell then you will be dumping massive amounts of heat into the masonry.

Most of the radiant heat from an insert is coming from the glass. All stoves put out tons of heat through the glass. It was the saving grace of my slow-to-warm up soapstone stove that I could at least warm my palms in front of the window while waiting hours for the body of the stove to heat up.

You're not a bad candidate for an insert. The princess insert would be a good fit. Pretty sure it uses a single squirrel cage fan on one side and sticks out into the room for some cooking and power outage heat.

What would I use for insulation? Fiberglass bats w/o foil or paper?

Day to day, I really don't want that fan on. We have a nice ceiling fan that I don't mind which has worked great for air movement with our Lange. If an insert was pushing a lot of heat out of the glass & the ceiling fan moved it around, it seems like it would work.

I'm leaning in the direction of Pacific Energy for an insert, Alderlea T5 or their Super models.

Our living space is shaped like an L and the insert would face the long part of the L. The short part of the L is off to the side of the insert. It is a very large opening to that area, but not in line with the heat from the glass. Would it be warm over there?

 

[BeachBumm]

To prevent room heat from escaping up the chimney. Installed near where traditional damper goes. One of the professionals here can probably elaborate more if necessary as I haven't installed an insert for over 20 years and the rules/techniques are always changing.

Question for the pro's:

Is it permissible to insulate around the insert with Roxul? Or do they need an air gap? I can see how that could prevent much heat normally lost to the exterior masonry.

I have a SS sheet fitted into the top of the fireplace now, with fiberglass on top of it, to help keep drafts out and heat in the room. It seems like it would be pretty difficult to get a tight fitting hole around the liner an still be able to pull and push the liner through the SS sheet. Not sure how to do that.

 

[jetsam]

Are inserts more-less a glorified fireplace?

Not even close. I heat my whole house with a fanless insert all fall and spring, and the mild parts of the winter.

An insert needs fans to really crank out high heat though, and a freestanding stove doesn't. The freestander is overall a better choice if your circumstances allow.

If you are out of power for days at a time in the winter, you are going to want either a freestanding stove or a generator. (From one island dweller to another- Get a generator anyway, no matter which stove you pick.)

 

[kennyp2339]

What would I use for insulation? Fiberglass bats w/o foil or paper

roxel insulation, fiberglass will burn