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Keystone Woodstove

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Todd, Jan 14, 2006.

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  1. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Every once in awhile I check out the Woodstock Soapstone site to check out their Keystone stove. (could be my next stove)Today I noticed something I haven't before. The Keystone and Palladian stoves both require a 7" flue? What's up with that? Their two larger models, Fireview and Classic take a 6" flue, and have larger fireboxes.

    Any of you Keystone owners out there have any info on this?

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  2. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    I e-mailed Woodstock about the 7" flue, and they replied that you can reduce the 7" to 6" at the exhaust collar and it wouldn't effect the operation any. So why not just build it with a 6" collar? Sounds a little strange to me.
  3. Herb

    Herb New Member

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    could the larger size be to allow for open-door burning?
  4. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Nope. It has a side loading door, and the front glass is fixed.
  5. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    6" seems fine to me for that stove - the only reason I can figure for their doing this is for when a chimney is really short - in this case, a wider chimneyh might help. They are often at this forum, so perhaps they will chip in....although I suppose they are busy right now building stoves!
  6. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

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    They visit our forums?

    That suddenly makes me feel kinda cool :)
  7. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

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    I went there this weekend to check out stoves (we had to go into town to run some errands anyway). The woman I talked with said they were pretty busy but it sounds like they're getting caught up as compared with a few weeks ago.

    The stoves look even better in person than in the pictures I've seen!
  8. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    Todd, I own the Keystone, since this fall.

    They sent a simple 7-6 adapter with the stove... and I bought all of the pipe from them. (and they got it RIGHT, the first time)

    I asked the same question when I bought the stove, and the answer is... that they would need to re-certify the stove if they changed the size down to six. They are planning on doing this "in the future".

    Rest assured, this stove kicks azz with the simple adapter. Ask any specific questions about this stove, if you would like.

    This stove is the HIGHEST quality unit I have EVER seen. Period. There are some things you should know, however.
  9. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Sandor,

    I like the looks of the Keystone, and would like to try a catalytic stove maybe in a couple years. Here are some questions.

    How long of a burn can you get by filling the firebox up completely with good hardwood?
    What is the max stove temp of the Keystone? What temps can you reach?
    When you reload and the temp is below the cat light off, do you have to wait and engage the cat again?
  10. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    I guess the question of "How Long of a burn" depends on.... are you looking for the max amount of time for the stove to still be producing meaningful heat, or is there enough red coals left to relight it without starting over. The answer FOR ME is 8 & 10 hours, respectively. Lots of variable here.

    The Max temp of the Keystone, according to the manual is 700 deg. I have not run mine over 550, because by then, it is putting out so much heat, I just don't need anymore. I'm heating 1600 sq/ft. I need to keep the air intake DOWN to maintain 550, or the temp would easily hit 700 or more.

    The manual (and supplied thermostat) says the cat needs a surface temp of 250 deg to light. The manual states the firebox temp is roughly double that. I don't flip the cat lever until the stove reaches about 325. Thats just me experimenting with smoke coming out of the chimney and the cat glowing red. The nightly ritual is to load it up, wait for the temp to come up, reduce the airflow by about half, flip the cat engagement lever, and marvel at the glowing red cat. Morning ritual is, disengage cat, open the air wide open, load it up, wait for stove temp of 325, engage cat, turn air half way down. The stove temp in the am is about usually about 200 deg... about 9 hours after the last nightly load.

    I have never loaded the stove, below the 250 cat light off point, and engaged the catalyst. So I cannot answer your question. What I have noticed, when the fire starts building, it puts off a fair amount of ash from the bark, that could cover the cat and cut the airflow. So I wait for a blaze, turn the air intake down to settle fire, then engage the cat.

    I have used four different steel stoves and the soapstone does act differently. The benefit of soapstone, is that it is easier to maintain a "steady momentum". I would only consider one of these if you intend to keep it lit, all the time. Not easy to light when cold, but easy to keep burning.

    The quality of workmanship is second to none.
  11. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Thanks Sandor,

    A few more questions if you don't mind. When you say you marvel at the glowing red cat what do you mean? Can you see it through the glass? How accessible is it for replacement? Does your glass stay clean on low burns?
  12. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    Todd,

    If you look up into the stove, you can see the cat. When its working, it glows red... so you can see it.

    To replace it, you can go through the back plate .... removing four allen screws. This assumes your pipe vents through the top. Your can remove it this way, or take it out and clean it.

    Or, you can go through the firebox, remove two bolts, remove the ash screen, and clean the fly ash off of the front of the cat.

    The glass in the morning is usually hazy, not the brown glass you see on alot of stoves after a slow, overnight burn. Once its up to temp, the glass clears up. Keep in mind, its not Windex clean, but a kinda patchy cloudy haze with no brown stuff.

    I know that this stove is an investment, and I fretted for more than a couple of years before I bought it.

    So ask as many questions as you wish.
  13. rstewart

    rstewart New Member

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    Hello All:
    I have worked for Woodstock Soapstone for 22 years and I want to clarify the issue of the 7" flue size on our Keystone/Palladian models. The original Palladian was introduced in 1985 with a 6" flue collar. It was taken off the market in 1989 for a major redesign and re-introduced in 1992 (followed by the Keystone, essentially the same stove with cosmetic changes) with a 7" flue collar. We were concerned with EPA testing results with a 6" flue and opted for the 7" so we would pass (EPA tests are expensive for a small company such as ours). As it turned out, our concerns were unfounded, but we passed at 7". Sandor is correct that we would need to re-certify to change the flue size to 6", and we are in the process of trying to make that change happen (it's not just a governmental issue but also redesigning the collar and the mold that makes it). We have designed many chimney packages for our customers that incorporate a reducer from 7"-6" and assuming all other standards are met (some people don't like to hear that a 14' minimum is recommended), it all works fine. If anyone has questions about this, feel free to contact me via email rons@woodstove.com.

    Ron
  14. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Ron,
    Thanks for the input. I just purchased the Fireview today. I was looking at the Keystone, but after talking with Tim we decided the Fireview would be the better stove for my situation. The only thing that concerns me about your cat stoves is the draft. We have had threads on here stating Cat stoves are more sensitive as far as draft goes. Is this true with Woodstock? Do cat stoves require an inside chimney? What about 90 deg elbows? I will have one at the back of the stove, and 2 more before a 22' s/s liner up my chimney. Will this reduce the required 14' minimum? Would double wall stove pipe increase the draft and help my situation, or can I go with the cheaper 22ga pipe?
  15. rstewart

    rstewart New Member

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    All modern woodstoves are more draft sensitive than older stoves. A cat stove may be a bit more sensitive due to the small openings in the honeycomb of the cat itself, but I don't believe our (Woodstock) stoves are any more sensitive in that respect. To paraphrase a line from real estate; Installation, Installation, Installation!. Yes, an interior chimney is always better than an exterior chimney but you deal with what you have, and your budget. Regarding elbows, the presence of 3 physical pipe 90° elbows usually indicates to me that there is a horizontal offset between the flue collar of the stove, and the thimble opening to the chimney (remember that the turn from the thimble up the chimney is another 90°). If that is the case, consider compensating for the offset by orienting the connector pipe diagonally to eliminate one elbow, rather than going up vertically, then over horizontally, then making another turn to the thimble (personally, I prefer the diagonal look). Other than the elbows you don't say how much interior pipe there will be so I can't say that close clearance (double wall) will be a huge benefit to you. My rule of thumb is that close clearance is recommended when the interior vertical run is 8' or more. What you have described will not negate the 14' minimum, but if your 22' SS liner (what's the diameter of the liner) is in an exterior chimney, consider wrapping it with insulation (unless it's already installed;that would be a pain, albeit worth it).

    FWIW, I recommend that all woodburners, both green and seasoned, visit John Gulland's excellent website, www.woodheat.org, to read about chimneys, draft, and how it all works.

    Ron
  16. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Ron,
    This is what I currently have. 2' vertical from the stove collar to a 90 deg elbow, then a 2' horizontal run including the liner which runs through the crock, bends 90 deg and up the chimney. The liner is 5.5" s/s and has insulation wrapped around the last top foot or so. My draft is really good, no problems except on warmer foggy days.

    With the Fireview the stove exhausts from the rear, so I would have to start with a 90 elbow right at the stove. That would increase my 90 elbows to 3-total. (if I keep it with the horizontal look) Unless like you say run a 45 from stove, then 2' diagonal, then 45 to crock. I guess the straighter the better, but don't know if I like the looks of a diagonal setup.

    I also have a clearance issue with the overhead. Only 14" from top of pipe to ceiling tiles. So I'll either have to use double wall pipe, or use a pipe shield for the 22ga like I have on top of my horizontal run now. The pipe shield may not work right with diagonal pipe.
  17. rstewart

    rstewart New Member

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    I would recommend elimanating the 2' horizontal run if possible. Draft wants to go up not over, but again, you have to deal with the real world. No need for 45° elbows, just twist your 90 at the stove to an angle. You have a short run so close clearance pipe isn't necessary, but I would put an additional, but short, pipe shield on the 14" to ceiling, or hang a shield from the ceiling.
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