KODIAK VS WATERFORD ERIN... Help, I don't want to be in the doghouse!!

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RebaDoc

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Oct 2, 2007
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I am trying to convince my husband to replace our Kodiak insert with a Waterford Erin model (of course it is prettier, but the Kodiak doesn't seem to be very efficient). We get a really hot fire going in the basement level of our home... but that is the only place that is warm. Last year I was freezing and decided to cut a hole in the floor directly above the Kodiak and installed a louver vent for better movement of the warm air to the upstairs... helped quite a bit.
Anyway... I have an opportunity today to purchase what looks like a brand new Erin at $450 (seller says only used 5x was in the house he just bought)... will have to have it installed... but I'm hoping that it would be a good choice to replace the KODIAK insert. My husband has a wood splitting obsession, so we have at least 30 cords of seasoned split hardwood on the sideyard... (yes 4X4X8, each); so no shortage of fuel. Will the Erin be able to heat at least as well as the Kodiak.
Also, elsewhere on your site I saw several people refer to the Erin as a pellet stove... but the Waterford-Stanley website lists it as fuel burning for larger spaces... if I do get the Erin, I suppose I could get parts still somehow even though Waterford is not sold in U.S. any longer.

Any recommendations?

Sincerely, Reba

P.S. I really appreciate your site and your tremendous knowledge base... thanks for being here!! :kiss:
 
Well to warn you your gonna get greif here from cutting that hole in the floor. Its a MAJOR fire hazard. Its give fire a direct path to the living space.
 
Thanks Wxman... comments noted. I had 3 Heating and Air company owners recommend it; I'm surprised that they were not well informed.
 
Hats off to your husband--he's almost as crazy as me. (40 here)

I'd say that anyone with 30 full cords of dry hardwood shouldn't ever have to be cold again.

My preference runs to central heat (boilers and furnaces), but I think you should have no trouble finding a good stove to meet your needs. Good stoves are not cheap, but I bet you could either sell or trade (to a stove dealer who also sells or needs firewood) some of that wood for a decent stove, if cost is an issue.

I'll let the stove freaks chime in with their suggestions.
 
Funny. Before checking hearth.com today I was looking for something and came across that ad for the Erin in Stafford. Those are gorgeous well built stoves and if I wasn't up to my ears in wood stoves I would probably be on my way to get it. It is only fifteen miles from me.

Here and there I have seen that it is a 55,000 BTU stove so it should be a good heater. I just don't know how efficient/clean burning it would be since it is a wood/coal stove but there were Erins certified at 7 grams of emissions and later the OA model at 4.1 so maybe they do burn clean with wood.

It should do as good a job or better than that old Kodiak and burn a heck of a lot less wood. And look a heck of a lot better too.
 
Thanks Eric...
Yes, my husband is a bit crazy... about WOOD that is!! :)
When you say your preference is to boilers/furnaces -- do you mean as primary heat? We have an oil burning furnace that heats baseboard hot water... Loved it (it is a very warm, moist heat... very comfortable). UNTIL, you have a Puff Back. We had an initial puff back and decided to replace the furnace after that (it was a minor puff back). So we had a Burnam installed 5 years ago, and on December 10th last year it displaced unburnt and partially burnt No. 2 heating fuel oil through every surface of my home (yes, from the attic insulation to the cement basement floor... in closet, drawers, cabinets, everything). We lost 90% of our home. At least 50 professionals, investigators, etc. have been through our home and no one had ever seen anything like it... and no one can figure out what happened (we have NO ducts... so this stuff just permeated everything... under doors, through wall plates, etc.) Reverse Pressurization or something with lack of clean air (we've had a clean air intake installed since). A nightmare beyond proportions... but we are so blessed that we and our 3 young children were not home. The Carbon Monoxide was 7 times the evacuation limit when we got home and my children sleep right across from the furnace - so the Good Lord was watching over us. So, we have rebuilt our home... BUT now, it is getting cold and to say that I am SCARED to DEATH to ever turn that rebuilt furnace on again... even though they've all told me that it is just like new and the likelihood of it happening again is so small.
All of this is why I want the most efficient Wood-burning stove I can get down there, without too much cost... due to our loss, we are trying to make it past this unfortunate time. I like your idea of providing cords to a stove dealer in exchange. That's a great idea!!

Your input is so appreciated. Thanks again!!
 
Sounds like the wood stove is a good solution to your problem.

I have a wood-fired boiler installed in my barn, with the hot water piped into our hot water heating system (cast iron radiators). It is, as you describe, very nice heat and easy to control, plus all the smoke, mess, fire hazard, etc. is basically outside.

Longer term, if you have that much wood and hot water baseboards, I'd start to think about getting a clean-burning outdoor wood boiler. They're not cheap and the technology is just being developed for practical applications, but it might be a good longterm heating solution for your house.
 
Tell me when that oil furnace back puffed was the l Kodiak stove in operation?

Can you humor me and tell me about you chimney height and current venting setups. How many separate flues in that chimney?

Is there a cloth's dryer in the basement? Can you provide the dementions of your basement?


I'm looking at things for you own personal safety first and any children sleeping in a basement bedroom

That hole you cut in the floor explains all the air soot through out your home I will educate you further about that practice
believe it or not your experience just made the point for not cutting holes in floors.

Lets start at page one and make your home situation safer. Forget the stove for a minute.

You may have had 50 experts but allow me to try to be the 51th one. If I'm right, we can help and educate others , not to make some of the same mistakes
 
It seems that many people such as yourself have difficulties heating their homes from the basement. The obvious air movment restrictions of getting the warm air up a floor (or two) is one limitation, but the other is the tremendous heat loss through the basement walls if they are uninsulated. Un-insulated concrete walls have an r value of about 1.11, 3" of fiberglass on top of that increases the r value by 8 times. A typical size un-insulated basement needs about 4 cords of wood just to heat the basement for a season; insulate it, and you cut the heat needed for just the basement to 1/2 cord. Obviously that would give you much more heat to transfer to the home above.
 
Elk...
Sure, I'll humor you... anything to help confirm my resolve about never turning the furnace on again.

1. No, we had gone away overnight, it was the first cold snap on December 9/10 of 2006. So, the Kodiak had not been lit at all for the season; but the furnace kicked on.
2. There are two Bedrooms 15X12 each, one bathoom 6x10, a rec room (where the Kodiak sits on full brick raised hearth) 24X18 (all feet measurements are estimated here)
3. And the infamous Laundry room - 12X14; with washer/dryer (neither working at the time) and 4 year old Burnam Furnace.
4. Actually, the room with the vent in the floor was the MBR, and that was absolutely the least effected with soot coverage. The kitchen is just above the laundry/furnace room and it came up around the water pipe and dishwasher pipe in tremendous volume... just trying to get out of that boiler room... where of course everything was covered with at least 1/4 inch of solid black oil/soot. It was not a dry soot... that they expect to see, it was an oily damp soot... could not be wiped or vacuumed up like with our puff back on the previous furnace. Outside of the Laundy Room door, across a hallway are the two BRs, immediately to the left were the carpeted steps up the the main level... that was also the heaviest black.
5. Understand that I am very safety concious.... working smoke dectectors were in EVERY room, and every hallway... including bathrooms... I also had a CO2 detector in the basement, which was not going off, but probably burned itself out going off for at least 10-12 hours. Also, learning that it can slow a fire, EVERY door in my house is closed before we leave to go away - even just overnight. So, all of this damage went through closed doors.
6. We have since had every surface replaced... but not drywall or studs. The electrical panel was in the laundry room - so that was replaced for safety.... along with every electrical receptical in the house... as it was inside all of the face plates.... following the wiring.

I appreciate your expertise... and can see that you are highly regarded on this site... I have no problem answering any of your questions. But I will need to get to the heat issue... I'm not turning the blasted furnace on again, and probably won't ever use one again. That outdoor boiler is looking better and better to me... anyone know of one less than $10,000.

God Bless you for your knowledge and offer to educate others!!

Reba

P.S. We have a poured flue (8", i think) that is about 5 years old.... Kodiak vents out of the top... Chimney is about 24 feet (guessing)
There was some discussion about the lint from the dryer being trapped in the furnace filter... but upon inspection it was minimal and not enough to cause this problem.
Also, one of the mechanisms from our furnace was sent to a Texas Investigator (hired by insurance co for subrogation, I'm sure) and they determined that the "eye" that confirms
the flame... failed... as well as the safety cut-off. So two failures. Burnam refused to come out to even look into, so if you own a furnace, please be careful!!
 
My initial response is you furnace is located in a boiler room confining it and not having sufficient combustion air. for that matter neither does you stove?
I see that finally someone figured it out and added an outside air kit IT also could have occurred due to an accumulative condition of not having enough combustion air

the nozzel got clogged and sooted up because not enough combustion air was available to burn cleanly and it took a period of deg ration the oily soot is from incomplete combustion which probably lined you chimney is quite a layer of carbon soot Again possibly caused by insufficiently combustion air burning dirty. I suspect what happened is the burner fired went out fired and a lot of excess oil vapor existed in the fire box causing it to puff or mini explosions when it did fire each time each mini explosion loosened all the carbon and puffed it back into your home but now with an oily residue on it from incomplete burn of the oil.,

Another possibility is the repair schedule of lack of burner tuneup and clean out coupled with combustion air deffeciencies Could even be a bad load of oil plugged oil filter never cleaned up during normal tune up. I'm talking about the pump filter not the tank one. I have seen some really half as* cleanups and tuning of oil burners where they only do part of the job neglecting the
oil pump screen

What you had was a faulty ignition problem that day.. When I do rough inspections on new homes it is not just srtuctual but fire stopping around pipes and wires same areas the soot path followed. That is why a floor is considered a natural containment barrier and cutting unproteccted holes in it is a risk I will not make in my home

Is there a fireplace in you chimney setup on the floor above the cellar? do you have an attic pull down stairs or whole house fan
 
A typical outdoor wood boiler should be less than $10,000, installed. However, conventional OWBs can produce a lot of smoke, so if you're in a populated area, I wouldn't do it. If you don't have any close neighbors, on the other hand, then it might be worth a look. There are many different brands and models at different price points.

What I was talking about is an outdoor wood gasification boiler. There are a few on the market now, but they tend to run around $8,000 to $9,000 plus installation. Plus, I'm not sure that they work as advertised. I've never seen one operating, but my impression is that they're rushing them to market before they've been completely field tested under actual battlefield conditions. After a couple of years, I'm sure most of the bugs will be worked out, the prices will come down, and people will be able to enjoy wood-fired central heat that's clean-burning, efficient and outdoors. Until then, I'd go with the stove.

The biggest problem most people have with all wood burners is getting dry wood. So you're way ahead of the game, no matter how you proceed.
 
Elk...
You are going all of the logical (logical to experts obviously; but not to me) places that the others have gone. I don't understand the combustible air component at all; sounds like everyone is convinced that the clean air intake for the furnace is a great choice. Better late than never. The new Burnam had been serviced every year since we put it in 5 years ago... and we trust the guy who services it ... we had called him but he couldn't get out before the accident; but said it was fine to use until he could get here to check it. Of course, he felt awful and helped us out as much as he could. He pulled the whole unit and burned it clean outside (took 5 hours), replaced all the working parts... and said not to worry, he'd burn it in his own house. Of course I worry.

Don't understand the fireplace/chimney question. There is a raised brick hearth... about 2.5 feet off the cement floor (carpet covered/ brick pad in front) the ledge is about 18 feet wide... woodstove sitting to left of center. Then the chimney goes up from the top of the stove/brick inset... I don't know what kind of L's or turns it takes to get to the flue... but we have had it checked several times... and there is a clean-out at the bottom of the chimney from the outside. There is only the one woodstove insert and chimney...

The Texas expert investigator also thought that there was an attic fan component... but no... no fan or pull down. That part... reverse pressurization is baffling everyone.
Okay... so now you guys have me worried about the vent... is this just dangerous if there is a fire. How dangerous is it and why do you think this was so hightly recommended by the heating and air guys if it such a bad idea. I don't want my family to freeze to death either... it really has helped get the heat upstairs; some even recommended a thermostat with fan for the vent.

What do you think about the Waterford Erin as a replacement for the KODIAK insert... or would it be a better choice to try to do a outdoor boiler further mitigating a problem with Fire.

Reba
 
It is very dangerous if there is a fire. Crucial minutes of escape time could be lost. Recommended by heating guys cause they are heating guys. Call your local Fire Department and ask them if its dangerous.
 
Why not put a stove in the 1st floor too? Stoves are space heaters. They dont work well as whole house heaters.
 
Yes, I might just go that route of putting the Erin upstairs... in the next day or two... Thanks!
 
I would not reccomend buying any Waterford products. I bought a Waterford Trinity MKII only three years ago. Since then, it seems Waterford no longer sells stoves in the US. Also, one of the reasons I bought a Waterford was for the limited lifetime warranty. It seems I can no longer make warranty claims now. Which is not a huge problem, but I still would like to buy parts. I need to buy a new coal bed grate and it seems there is nowhere to buy parts for my stove anymore - even though it is only three years old. Unless someone has a suggestion on where I can get parts -PLEASE :) Just wanted to give you something else to think about. I love my Waterford. It runs 24 hours a day from November to March and it looks great. But none of this matters if I can't get parts and keep it running.
 
I would have to echo the concerns for getting the Waterford. Moving the stove to the first floor is a very good plan, but get a stove that you trust and will give you years of service with easy to get parts.
 
wxman said:
It is very dangerous if there is a fire. Crucial minutes of escape time could be lost. Recommended by heating guys cause they are heating guys. Call your local Fire Department and ask them if its dangerous.
Click to expand...
I have six vents located through out my fully inspected and permitted home. As long as the vents are certified spring loaded fire dampers its OK to their authority of jurisdiction. I think peoples open stairwells are more of a concern. THEY ARE NOT FIRE RATED AND DONT HAVE TO HAVE AN AUTOMATIC CLOSURE. Any body can leave this area wide open and we are worried about a vent opening. Vents :gulp: are allowed as long as they are sleeved and have a fire rated damper. How many people close the door to their stairwell @ night. OR have a door at all. :gulp:
Maybe ELK can shed some light on this. Am I just able to get away with this and the local inspectors dont know any better?
Is the open stairwell a valid point? No disrespect at all ELK. Just some other angles. :question: All code related.
 
Open stairways are a risk as noted. That's why they are protected with smoke detectors and soon CO detectors. There are compromises for conviences

the open stairway is a hell of a lot more convient than going out side and using a ladder

The point here is containment. Proven containment saves vital time to safely exit . Proven you are saver sleeping in bedrooms with closed doors
That is why smoke detectors are required inside bedrooms. The last place I would want a hole in the floor is in a bedroom When are we most vulnerable
( while sleeping) When doing rough frame inspections the inspection consist or structural evaluation, but also fire stopping and draft stopping.The reason why,
studies have proven fire blocking ect, provides for containment. Your floors and ceilings are natural containment structures./ assemblies

Reality is some homeowner gets a bright idea about moving heat without considering the ramifications of their actions . No permit never thinking to ask questions. Most of the time they cut a hole directly over a stove. (The most dangerous possible location) Almost always they never consider supply equals returns, they think in only terms of moving hot air.

North in your case, at least your opening have a degree of protection with smoke dampers ,No protection to CO poisoning Unless you have full coverage of CO detection

At one time homes had laundry chutes The reason they were eliminated is that studies of how fire spread in a dwelling proved they were an expressway.
You aught to see all the code language requirements for a laundry chutes Practically making them cost prohibited. That and moving laundry areas near the bedrooms, also eliminated the need

I have sat in the lectures and film sequences s detailing how fires spread in a home. I came away with the realization there is not as much time as we think and become complacent to this fact. Almost all fires should have been prevented And that us humans do stupid things. Think of my response is being an ounce of prevention
 
Firestarter,
Did you happen to get the Waterford Erin Coal? I have one and a Trinity MKII. I've been away from my VT home for a while am am back and plan to fire both stoves soon. I heated mostly with the Trinity for several seasons day and night and added the Erin when I needed more heat. Having remodeled to an open concept I'll plan on using more coa and the Erin. Both put out lots of clean heat. The Erin flue stayed pretty clean and the Trinity didn't creosote up at all since I hot burn for a while with each new load.

If you did get the Erin you can order parts from several US based suppliers. They'll order various items they don't stock and then ship them to the customer. Also, if you have one, I'd love to get a copy of the manual as I need to verify the air controls on the Erin since it's been over 5 years since I used it.

Thanks.

Remi9
 
Update to my original Post...
I have found a supplier for Waterford Stoves in the US and they are fabulous and extremely pleasant and helpful. However, getting the parts here seems excessively expensive to me lucky for us we didn't need any parts. Here is the information that they sent to me for Stoveparts in the US. "... yes, feel free to post our information on the site you mentioned. Use this contact information:
Lehman's Hardware
Physical Address:
1 Lehman Cr., Kidron, Ohio 44636
Mailing Address:
289 N. Kurzen Rd, Dalton, Oh 44619
Phone and Email:
888-438-534
[email protected]"

Nicholas Miller
Ext. 3246
Major Products Department
Lehman's Hardware

"Authentic Products That Work For Life""

With respect to the stove, unfortunately the Erin was not a good fit for our firebox with a "T" and the drafting was off... so my husband won with the ugly old Kodiak... but I must admit it is warm!! Below 30 here today. Anyway, I will be putting the beautiful Erin Woodstove up for sale here locally in January, 2008. It surely is quite a beautiful stove that someone will be lucky to get.
 
Waterford no longer sells in the USA. Getting parts for an Erin Woodstove will be difficult at best
 
Reba, sorry you lost the battle for beauty but won on heat. I've found the folks at Waterford in Ireland to be responsive to requests for parts and info since last week. They also sent a pdf of the Erin manual. Mine is the coal only model (1999 or so build) and it'll be interesting to compare the two manuals.

If I do need parts I'll call the Lehman folks. I had been to site last week, but they seem to have to order most and don't display a lot. Not sure if thats true, just a site observation.

If anyone wants pdf manuals of the Erin Coal, Erin Wood burning, or the Trinity MKII, I guess we can email or perhaps attach them to a post.

There should be some type of library on the forum for these kind of things if copyright is not an issue.

best,

remi
 
I can put such manuals in the wiki if you email them to me - so can you.....if it is under a certain size (I think 2 megs)....if over, email to me and I will reduce - there are a number of manuals there already.

See the wiki link at top of page

my email is [email protected] if you want to email direct.
 
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