Lack of heat from PE Summit LE Wood Stove

[begreen]

Should the flue surface temp be less?

Yes, ideally about a 100º lower surface temp on the stovepipe would be good.

 

[begreen]

I doubt anything is clogging the secondary channel; It would take something pretty large.

Not really, especially on the LE models with the EBT which will act as a catch basin. If crud blocks or prevents the flapper operation then the EBT will not work. On the older stoves, it would depend on the volume of soot and sote that is brushed. If it's a gallon or more and a healthy portion goes down the tube, then it could potentially block it up, especially if this happens with multiple cleanings.

Yeah, the 3/8" gasket might be too fat.

That's what I used. It took some compressing when new, but it flattened and remained so afterwards. This is what it looked like after 5 yrs.

I think I will try 1/4" gasket the next time, or maybe this stuff from Lynn.
Amazon product ASIN B072HQ2B2N

 

[FrozenVT]

Just wanted to give everyone an update.

I installed key damper and it has helped some with the high flue temps, the chimney still pulls a strong draft even with the damper closed. I can run the stove as normal with the damper closed 24/7 and it still drafts without issue. Wondering if installing a 6” liner would help control the draft even more.

I also installed the blower on the Summit and it has made a huge difference. The room with the stove will now get 90 degrees plus without issue. It also somehow appears to help with secondary burn.

I now believe the stove is working well and really appreciate all the advice given here. I think I still have some work to get this stove totally dialed in. At this point I’m now fighting air circulation around the house to get this new found heat actually heating the house. I’m working on making some floor plan drawings and will make a different post about that.

Thanks again everyone and I hope you all had a great holiday.

 

[FrozenVT]

Not really, especially on the LE models with the EBT which will act as a catch basin. If crud blocks or prevents the flapper operation then the EBT will not work. On the older stoves, it would depend on the volume of soot and sote that is brushed. If it's a gallon or more and a healthy portion goes down the tube, then it could potentially block it up, especially if this happens with multiple cleanings.


That's what I used. It took some compressing when new, but it flattened and remained so afterwards. This is what it looked like after 5 yrs.

View attachment 305271

I think I will try 1/4" gasket the next time, or maybe this stuff from Lynn.
Amazon product ASIN B072HQ2B2N

Any tips on checking/cleaning the secondary air channel? I assume the flapper and what not is located inside my pedestal base?

I’ll try some 1/4 gasket and see if it helps my secondary burn. How long do you get secondary burn? I’ll maybe get 3mins of it before it dies down, and it’s generally quite limited in area.

 

[TomMcDonald]

Any tips on checking/cleaning the secondary air channel? I assume the flapper and what not is located inside my pedestal base?

I’ll try some 1/4 gasket and see if it helps my secondary burn. How long do you get secondary burn? I’ll maybe get 3mins of it before it dies down, and it’s generally quite limited in area.

This is my stove which is a neo 2.5 so a bit different but similar firebox.



It will burn like this for a long time and if you look closely you'll see the secondary flames burning holes in the wood.

I believe it's important to get a real decent fire going that's hot before turning down. I rarely turn the control down all the way and this video was probably filmed with the air slightly to the left of fully closed.

If your draft is out of control it might be reducing how much secondary burn you get as it's most notable when the air is turned down and the fire burning slowly.

Tom.

 

[FrozenVT]

This is my stove which is a neo 2.5 so a bit different but similar firebox.



It will burn like this for a long time and if you look closely you'll see the secondary flames burning holes in the wood.

I believe it's important to get a real decent fire going that's hot before turning down. I rarely turn the control down all the way and this video was probably filmed with the air slightly to the left of fully closed.

If your draft is out of control it might be reducing how much secondary burn you get as it's most notable when the air is turned down and the fire burning slowly.

Tom.

Thanks Tom, once I have a nice hot fire I’ll turn the stove down and get those nice slow flames for maybe 10-15mins before they die out. I’m generally running the air about an 1” from fully closed. Just about at the “L” mark on the H to L gauge. This generally keeps the flames active and some secondary burn but it’s all fast flames and none of the air wash effect, which leads me to think I still have too much draft.

 

[Woody Stover]

I installed key damper and it has helped some with the high flue temps, the chimney still pulls a strong draft even with the damper closed. I can run the stove as normal with the damper closed 24/7 and it still drafts without issue. Wondering if installing a 6” liner would help control the draft even more.

I’m now fighting air circulation around the house to get this new found heat actually heating the house.

Thanks Tom, once I have a nice hot fire I’ll turn the stove down and get those nice slow flames for maybe 10-15mins before they die out. I’m generally running the air about an 1” from fully closed. Just about at the “L” mark on the H to L gauge. This generally keeps the flames active and some secondary burn but it’s all fast flames and none of the air wash effect, which leads me to think I still have too much draft....We burn hardwood that is dry. Split this past spring, stacked outside till November and then stacked inside. We try and Lee at least a week worth of split wood in the room with the stove to also help drying. No hissing or steaming from the wood when burning. If it was a wood issue I don’t think that would explain the lack of heat from red hot embers.

I put one key damper in the connector pipe in my SIL's 16' stack. It had a slight effect, but when I put a second key damper in, that made a more substantial difference.
I still think some of these issues are pointing to wood that isn't dry enough. The fact that the secondaries die, and the wood isn't flaming much when you cut the air low leads me to believe wood moisture is an issue.
When you tested the splits, was the wood at room temp for a day or more? Cold wood will meter a few percent lower than what it really is. And where these big splits that you tested? They will be wetter..
If you have a woodlot, go out and find small <8" trees, standing or dead, with the bark fallen off, and try some of that to see if you can cut the air low and still maintain a good burn. That stuff is usually quite dry.
As far as moving heated air, a good way is to have a small 8" fan on the floor outside the stove room, run on low speed so you don't disrupt the natural convection loop that is already trying to move cool, dense air in the bottom of the doorway, displacing warm, light air out the top. Then you can use another fan on low, in a room where you want more heat, again moving cool air out the bottom of the doorway.

 

[FrozenVT]

I put one key damper in the connector pipe in my SIL's 16' stack. It had a slight effect, but when I put a second key damper in, that made a more substantial difference.
I still think some of these issues are pointing to wood that isn't dry enough. The fact that the secondaries die, and the wood isn't flaming much when you cut the air low leads me to believe wood moisture is an issue.
When you tested the splits, was the wood at room temp for a day or more? Cold wood will meter a few percent lower than what it really is. And where these big splits that you tested? They will be wetter..
If you have a woodlot, go out and find small <8" trees, standing or dead, with the bark fallen off, and try some of that to see if you can cut the air low and still maintain a good burn. That stuff is usually quite dry.
As far as moving heated air, a good way is to have a small 8" fan on the floor outside the stove room, run on low speed so you don't disrupt the natural convection loop that is already trying to move cool, dense air in the bottom of the doorway, displacing warm, light air out the top. Then you can use another fan on low, in a room where you want more heat, again moving cool air out the bottom of the doorway.

Thanks Woody Stover,

I'll run out and get some kiln-dried wood from a local place and try that. I rotate roughly 3 face cords into the stove room to help it keep drying before I burn it. I can maintain secondary burn if I keep the air about 1" or so open from fully closed. But at that point, I don't get those slow flames or air wash effects and feel like I'm losing heat out of the flue as it looks like a lot of airflow going up over the baffle.

 

[Woody Stover]

I can maintain secondary burn if I keep the air about 1" or so open from fully closed. But at that point, I don't get those slow flames or air wash effects and feel like I'm losing heat out of the flue as it looks like a lot of airflow going up over the baffle.

If the Summit is similar to the T5, it breathes very easily. On her 16' stack my SIL can cut the air all the way once the fire is established, and get slow, lazy flame off the wood and strong secondary burn as the smoke slowly moves past the baffle. This is with her 2019 model, which allows the air to be cut further than the newer LE models. I think that is where a second key damper might help you.
I supply her wood, so I know it's dry.. 16-18%.
I forgot to comment on your question of a 6" liner all the way up. That will increase the draft over your present chimney configuration.

 

[FrozenVT]

If the Summit is similar to the T5, it breathes very easily. On her 16' stack my SIL can cut the air all the way once the fire is established, and get slow, lazy flame off the wood and strong secondary burn as the smoke slowly moves past the baffle. This is with her 2019 model, which allows the air to be cut further than the newer LE models. I think that is where a second key damper might help you.
I supply her wood, so I know it's dry.. 16-18%.
I forgot to comment on your question of a 6" liner all the way up. That will increase the draft over your present chimney configuration.

Just when I think I’m getting somewhere with this stove it seems like I’m actually not getting anywhere. I went out and got some nice kiln dried local firewood and the stove is running like crap. I made a quick video, im getting barely any secondary burn on high/medium and nothing on low. Hope this video shows my issues and struggles.

 

[Sailrmike]

Just when I think I’m getting somewhere with this stove it seems like I’m actually not getting anywhere. I went out and got some nice kiln dried local firewood and the stove is running like crap. I made a quick video, im getting barely any secondary burn on high/medium and nothing on low. Hope this video shows my issues and struggles.

Kiln dried doesn't necessarily mean that the internal moisture content is where it should be. Looks like unseasoned wood burning there, I've been there before. Also, try loading a second level of wood on top of those 4 pieces, i find stoves burn better when filled up more. Hope this helps

 

[TomMcDonald]

I

Kiln dried doesn't necessarily mean that the internal moisture content is where it should be. Looks like unseasoned wood burning there, I've been there before. Also, try loading a second level of wood on top of those 4 pieces, i find stoves burn better when filled up more. Hope this helps

Agree. Looks like unseasoned wood. The charred ends are a give-away in my opinion.

I usually don't get decent secondaries until there's a decent load. I'll generally load 3 five inch wide splits north south and 2 of the same east west on top (like jenga). Get them raging then turn the air down after 15 minutes. Another 15 minutes later and I'll turn it down again.

 

[FrozenVT]

I

Agree. Looks like unseasoned wood. The charred ends are a give-away in my opinion.

I usually don't get decent secondaries until there's a decent load. I'll generally load 3 five inch wide splits north south and 2 of the same east west on top (like jenga). Get them raging then turn the air down after 15 minutes. Another 15 minutes later and I'll turn it down again.

I just split 3 pieces of the kiln dried and it metered at 10%, 10%, and 12%. This place is know for high quality dry firewood. It sounds nice and hollow and is metering dry.

 

[TomMcDonald]

I just split 3 pieces of the kiln dried and it metered at 10%, 10%, and 12%. This place is know for high quality dry firewood. It sounds nice and hollow and is metering dry.

Ok. I would pack the firebox to the brim then and see how she burns. My jenga method works well for me but it's a neo 2.5.
You won't always get secondaries firing all of the time with these stoves anyway.

In saying all this I've never been completely satisfied with the way my stove burns and wouldn't buy another one personally.

Tom

 

[FrozenVT]

Ok. I would pack the firebox to the brim then and see how she burns. My jenga method works well for me but it's a neo 2.5.
You won't always get secondaries firing all of the time with these stoves anyway.

In saying all this I've never been completely satisfied with the way my stove burns and wouldn't buy another one personally.

Tom

Thanks Tom, I’ll give the jegna method a try!

 

[Prometeo]

what I see, primary air burns all gases completely, and then, I hope is a joke, drying wood in the oven, probably the wood gases that come out when the wood is heated have been lost take normally seasoned wood, fill the stove and you will see 2burns return

 

[FrozenVT]

what I see, primary air burns all gases completely, and then, I hope is a joke, drying wood in the oven, probably the wood gases that come out when the wood is heated have been lost take normally seasoned wood, fill the stove and you will see 2burns return

I’ve tried all kinds of wood, kiln dried, 2 year old stacked, 1 year old stacked. I just don’t get good secondary burn, and when I do it’s very short lived. Interesting comment about the primary air burning all the gases, hadn’t thought of that.

 

[Prometeo]

I’ve tried all kinds of wood, kiln dried, 2 year old stacked, 1 year old stacked. I just don’t get good secondary burn, and when I do it’s very short lived. Interesting comment about the primary air burning all the gases, hadn’t thought of that.

secondary burn comes if primary is little or castrated completely.
I don't know your stove but it seems like the draft balance is very pushed below and slightly above from the baffle.
Idk if there are settings, but it's probably better the way it is now considering your room temperatures

 

[FrozenVT]

One thing I’ve been noticing is I don’t get much air flow in the rear of the firebox, is that common? I notice it most with hot coals, the front few inches are all nice and red hot while the rest is just black coal. This is even with the air on high. If I open the door all the coals light up pretty quickly, is this normal?

 

[begreen]

One thing I’ve been noticing is I don’t get much air flow in the rear of the firebox, is that common? I notice it most with hot coals, the front few inches are all nice and red hot while the rest is just black coal. This is even with the air on high. If I open the door all the coals light up pretty quickly, is this normal?

The fire will burn from front to back. If the wood is not fully seasoned, coals can remain at the back of the firebox. How is the stove being loaded, N/S, E/W?

 

[FrozenVT]

The fire will burn from front to back. If the wood is not fully seasoned, coals can remain at the back of the firebox. How is the stove being loaded, N/S, E/W?

Generally N/S. Should I be getting secondary burn from the air baffle in the rear and the front on a fresh fire? Unless the stove is cranked I get basically no flame in the rear or secondary burn. Once turned down I’ll get some secondary burn right by the front of the air baffle but that’s about it. Can the baffles get clogged? It’s going to warm up this weekend, maybe I should shut the stove down and check the air baffle and the tube that feeds it?

 

[begreen]

Secondary burn occurs strongly in the center top, with billowing wings of secondary fire on the sides.

The baffle doesn't get clogged because of the airflow thru it. No smoke or ash enters it, just room or outside air.

 

[begreen]

Reviewing the thread, it looks like the wood was tested for moisture. Was the wood split in half before testing on the freshly exposed interior face of the wood? Limb rounds dry slower inside than split rounds.

In the video in post #35, I see good secondary combustion. The only issue there is not enough wood. It's only one layer deep. I fill ours up to just under the baffle.

 

[begreen]

Also note that the air control is not linear. Most of the air control occurs in the last inch of the air control travel. With a full load of wood and decent draft, the air control can be all the way closed. Opening up just 1/4" can really liven up the fire.

 

[Prometeo]

the changes you make, however, affect all operating conditions. The draft limiter limits air especially at slow speeds. When you make a change, check all the circumstances, even starting the fire, fire high and low, and evaluate adjustments.