Laddomat during power failure

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barnartist

Minister of Fire
Thought I would try and figure this out rather than wait until it figures it out FOR me.

My Laddomat never did self circulate during a power outage. I have always had to go fire up a generator to run it.

After careful thought, I realized that the valves would not know to open during a power failure because of the placement of the unit during install. The valves never see the overheating water, only the cool water from the tanks, so the valves remain closed. If this is so, how should one plumb it up then to work on its own?

My twin tanks are installed within 2 feet of the Eko, and since they are standing vertically, the tanks top and header are probably more than 5 feet above the Eko's hot water exit. Gravity should not be a problem.
 
The Laddomat thermosiphen valve does not operate according to water temp. This is held up by water pressure from the running pump & upon power failure it drops down. Because you get overheating it is either a stuck valve or the piping is not pitched properly or there is a restriction somewhere. Did you pipe the output of the Lado to the top of your tank? Are you able to load some pics? Randy
 
If this is the model you have, on page 3 is a diagram showing the internal flow through the unit at various phases. Power outage is the bottom one showing the check valve on the bottom that opens if the cooler water in the tank is able to flow easily. If the tank is completely filled with hot water there won't be much density difference between the water in the boiler and the water in the tank and so not much pressure to push the water. The thermostatic unit is not involved in this scenario either way. It's cold water that drives it.
If your tanks are connected right off the bottoms and not through some sort of drop tube that requires the water off the bottom to flow up, out and then down it is a bit puzzling why it wouldn't flow.


http://www.laddomat.eu/media/upload/Lm21_Manual_72-1_E.pdf

You may need to copy and paste this URL into your browser to get it to work.
 
DaveBP said:
If this is the model you have, on page 3 is a diagram showing the internal flow through the unit at various phases. Power outage is the bottom one showing the check valve on the bottom that opens if the cooler water in the tank is able to flow easily. If the tank is completely filled with hot water there won't be much density difference between the water in the boiler and the water in the tank and so not much pressure to push the water. The thermostatic unit is not involved in this scenario either way. It's cold water that drives it.
If your tanks are connected right off the bottoms and not through some sort of drop tube that requires the water off the bottom to flow up, out and then down it is a bit puzzling why it wouldn't flow.


http://www.laddomat.eu/media/upload/Lm21_Manual_72-1_E.pdf

You may need to copy and paste this URL into your browser to get it to work.
Dave, I had read that the check valve you mention was help up by pump pressure. It appears you are saying that thermosiphen pressure opens this. Am I correct? Did I get some bad info? I understand what your are saying about the cold water driving the circulation & the wax pellet thermostat doesn't play a part in this, it's the rest I'm confused about, Randy
 
Dave is correct, I got some bad info & apologize. Thermosiphen does lift the small valve to allow flow. I looked at the drawings that came with my Lado. If all else fails read the directions, Randy
 
Rereading my post I think it could be misinterpreted.

On the Laddomat, the check valve is spring operated, normally open. If the circulator is running, the check valve closes and the flow has to go through the thermostatic unit and its valve--or the boiler supply according to how hot the water is coming from the tank/s. If the circulator is not running, because of a power failure or it just dies, the check valve opens by spring pressure and allows water to flow through the unit and bypass the thermostatic circuit. But only if there is adequate "thermosiphon pressure" to flow.

The Termovar Loading Unit works about the same but the check valve is not spring loaded. It's just a brass reinforced rubber flap that can swing open or closed according to which way the pressure is coming from.

The concept of a thermosiphon can be tricky to wrap your mind around.
I find it helpful to think of it not as hot water rising, but as cold water sinking down. It's driven by gravity and gravity only works down (here on the surface of the earth where most of us on this forum live). Picture that thermocline (that level where the hot water above meets the cold water below) in your tanks. Assuming they are plumbed parallel, that line of stratification needs to be higher than the bottom of your boiler where the return line comes in. If it has to rise up and back down it can't do it unless the thermocline it higher than the top of that rise. And then it will only go down to the same level as that high point in the plumbing. You really want to see the circuit as a circle; or more likely a rectangle. Up out of the boiler, across to the tank/s, down through the tank/s and back across to the boiler again. If there is any roller coaster action between the boiler and the tank/s it can be a show stopper. And if the tanks are in series I'm not betting this hand. I don't know how that would work.
If the tank is almost full of hot water you can see how there just isn't much more driving force to run the thermosiphon. Just that little bit of cold water is left in the bottom of the tank.That's not when you want to have the power go out with a fire still cranking away.

The ultimate is to have your storage tanks on the next floor up and then it could completely thermosiphon so that the coldest water in the entire circuit is in the boiler. Most of us won't have that luxury. And I don't know if it's all that important if you can get through a power outage without blowing the relief valve.
 
I guess that would make sence about the stratisfying line being higher than the boiler, or better yet the laddomat. Though its frustrating when the boiler gets as high as 240 and the tanks are maybe 150 and it wont move on it's own enough to bail you out. This was one of the features that hooked me to but it. When they show the plumbing diagram, I don't believe it is mentioned. But I am betting that the systems in europe are usually set up in a basement, then feed all of the upper floors plumbing, and I am thinking now that some homes run without any circulators at all and use gravity to run everything. Hence the big inlet and outlet lines on the boiler.

Unless I set up an automatic battery takeover system upon power outage, I fear one day I will be away and get burned.
 
barnartist said:
I guess that would make sence about the stratisfying line being higher than the boiler, or better yet the laddomat. Though its frustrating when the boiler gets as high as 240 and the tanks are maybe 150 and it wont move on it's own enough to bail you out. This was one of the features that hooked me to but it. When they show the plumbing diagram, I don't believe it is mentioned. But I am betting that the systems in europe are usually set up in a basement, then feed all of the upper floors plumbing, and I am thinking now that some homes run without any circulators at all and use gravity to run everything. Hence the big inlet and outlet lines on the boiler.

Unless I set up an automatic battery takeover system upon power outage, I fear one day I will be away and get burned.
The Eko's don't have a cooling loop? The Atmos has this & water can't get over about 200F. I don't use a circulator on my heating loop. Thermosiphen does a great job & is quiet! You can add on a cooling loop. You can see these at Kotly.com, they don't ship to the USA though. You can also place a cast iron radiator above the boiler with solenoids that will open. There are other safety measures too, Randy
 
Barnartist, do you use a barometric damper to limit the draft on your chimney? A tall chimney once heated by a couple hours of high burn could pull quite a lot of air through your boiler if the draft fan weren't running. This might cause the boiler to overrun the thermosiphon action.
A barometric damper could minimize the burn rate of the boiler when the draft fan is off because they never really shut off the supply of air to the firebox completely.

I guess what I'm saying is that your Laddomat may be doing a fine job but the boiler is outrunning it when the power is off.
 
That is a great point Dave. I don't have a b.damper. My understanding was it was used if you had too much draft. I have not studied how they really work, where they are installed etc. I control my Eko with a timer. I usually set it to burn for 5 1/2 hours even though on average my tanks get recharged in 3. The unburned wood is always glowing even when I reload at around 12 hours.
Yes it is very possible it could be doing that, but let me say it does not take long for my eko to get hot-probably can get to 220 easily within an hour. I wonder if I would be able to hear the water moving on its own or not with the power shut down. If that would help solve the problem, I would have to be a better option than an overheat loop.
 
Hard to know if you need a barometric damper without using a draft gage. And you probably need a draft gage to set the damper correctly. Catch 22.

I seem to remember at least a couple different manufacturers recommending about .04" or .05". That's not a lot of draft. My chimney gets to .15 and then some very quickly when it's hot and left to its own devices. It's 30 ft. of interior masonry.

There's a lot of past threads on draft gages and barometric dampers. I'm not sure what the cheapest draft gage costs. Bacharach's cheaper one is about $100. I think there is a plastic Dwyer gage that can be used for measuring chimney draft. There was a post about that.

But I believe exsessive draft could make your boiler's idle burn rate higher than it would be if the draft were more in the recommended range. And that might bring it down to where your thermosiphon could keep up with it without the circulator running.

Do you have a thermometer at the top of your tanks? If when the power was out and the boiler temp starts ramping up, if the top of the tanks were getting hotter that would suggest that the water is moving out of the boiler by thermosiphon alone. I wouldn't quess you could hear it.
 
Thermosiphon action is going to be pretty much dead silent - it isn't all that fast so you aren't going to get any plumbing noises... As mentioned, about the only way you will know it's there is to monitor your temperature changes...

One can do a home brew draft gage with a bit of ingenuity and a bunch of clear fish tank tubing. You will need a container that the tubing can attach to on the bottom, and is open at the top, plus a moderately good sized board - say a 1x10" or 12", 2-3' long.

Attach the bottle to one end of the board, and run the tubing up the board in a straight line, on a diagonal, that starts on the end with the bottle about 2-3" up on the board and is an inch or two higher on the other end. Position the bottle and the start of the tube so that you can put a few ounces of water in the bottle before the level is even with or a little above the start of the diagonal. Continue the tube from the high side of the diagonal long enough to connect to the flue.

Mark a zero point near the low end of the diagonal, and then mark very accurately the height of the tube above a line drawn the length of the board through the zero point every 1/2" or so along the tube.

Make a hole or fitting you can attach the tube to in the flue - and some way of connecting the tube that will be low enough temp not to melt it.

Position the board near the boiler with the line through the zero point being dead level.

With the tube NOT attached to the flue, carefully fill the bottle with water until the level in the tube is EXACTLY at the zero point. If you have trouble seeing the water level, try adding a drop or two of food coloring.

Hook the tube to the flue adapter. The draft will pull the water up vertically an amount equal to the negative pressure - this is where the "Inches of water column" term comes from! Since the tube is at an angle, the water will also travel horizontally, in effect spreading out the vertical distance so you can see just how far it went up... Usually you want to see what the reading is with the boiler going full blast, and set your Baro accordingly.

Note that this is a home brew version of a precision instrument - the quality and accuracy of your readings will only be as good as the job you do in construction, and the care with which you use it...

Since I'm not sure just how clear my description above is, I just drew a rough plan for one in QCAD and attaching a JPG of my drawing. The dimensions are not critical, I just included them to give an idea of how it works. Also I accidentally set the scale wrong when setting up the drawing, the green measurements are off by 10, so shift the decimal over one place... On some pro-models of the same idea, I've seen them do a sort of "hockey stick" curve on the angled tube, where the angle gets steeper as the amount of suction goes up, on the theory that you don't need as precise a reading. OTOH, if this doesn't give a precise enough reading, making the tube angle lower will spread the scale out further, with the limit that the lower the angle, the more precisely you will need to make sure the reference line is exactly level. I can't emphasize enough how critical it is to get the level right, especially as the vacuum level being measured gets smaller...

Rather than using a construction level, one can arguably get a more precise leveling action by running a second length of tube in a wide "U" from one end of the board to the other, and filling it part way with water - then measuring the distance of the two water column ends from the zero line (or a second line parallel to it) - if they are the same then the line is level...

Gooserider
 

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