Liability with providing service

[smwilliamson]

Some of you may remember the form which I posted showing how I verify installations at each service. I started doing this form to try and limit the risk exposure my company has with providing service.

I run into a lot of homeowner installs (and professional) which do not meet UL requirements etc...but should I not be allowed to work on the unit? Many of us in the industry would no, the unit needs to be installed the right way. As a professional, and by virtue of my licenses and NFI Certification, I am supposed to follow NFPA 211 standards as well as local and state codes.

So yesterday I'm at a customer's home working on a Tasman Insert, I perform the front end service and then pull it out to perform the rear end service and run my form...

Uh oh! This unit is installed into an old Heatilator zero clearance box. This unit as an insert is only approved for Masonry. So, I have to fail the installation.

Question is....can I still clean the stove if the homeowner signs my form saying that the stove is installed against it's UL listing and that it should not be used until the problem is corrected. Obviously, I'm not going to start it up either...cause it's not safe.

What say you?

 

[smoke show]

I'd be scared of sue happy people.

 

[fedtime]

First question: what does your insurance company say? I assume you carry liability insurance of some sort.

 

[smwilliamson]

First question: what does your insurance company say? I assume you carry liability insurance of some sort.

They don't say really...that's just it. I get classified under sheet metal work for workers comp and my liability carrier only requires that equipment be UL listed

 

[joescho]

I'd be scared of sue happy people.

Amen to that.... There's always somebody looking to throw the blame and liability on someone else than themselves.....

That said, isn't just your resposibility to make them aware of the situation and that its unsafe? After that, its their responsibility to either get it fixed or not whether it be by you or soemone else. I could see if they ask you to fix it, and when you leave the job its still unsafe for some reason then yeah its your butt...

just my 2 cents...

 

[Delta-T]

excellent question. on the one hand, if you think of it like a vehicle inspection, if your vehicle has some deficiency, you get a rejection sticker and off you go. if you dont get it addressed you get pulled over and fined until you do. Unfortunately, no one is gonna ticket you for not getting your stove install up to spec, unless you go driving your stove around town. I have little faith in people saying "Oh yah, I'll totally get that fixed before using it (wink)". All you can really do IMO, is offer to get it up to par, or walk away graciously after having explained why. To each their own I suppose, but someone has to be looking out for the people who don't know to look out for themselves.

 

[smwilliamson]

excellent question. on the one hand, if you think of it like a vehicle inspection, if your vehicle has some deficiency, you get a rejection sticker and off you go. if you dont get it addressed you get pulled over and fined until you do. Unfortunately, no one is gonna ticket you for not getting your stove install up to spec, unless you go driving your stove around town. I have little faith in people saying "Oh yah, I'll totally get that fixed before using it (wink)". All you can really do IMO, is offer to get it up to par, or walk away graciously after having explained why. To each their own I suppose, but someone has to be looking out for the people who don't know to look out for themselves.

I was going to include the vehicle inspection thing too, you beat me to it.

 

[silverfox103]

Why would you even think of doing that?

If you do work on it, you're putting your stamp of approval on it. Before you do anything, it has to be corrected, end of story.

Tom C.

 

[smwilliamson]

Why would you even think of doing that?

If you do work on it, you're putting your stamp of approval on it. Before you do anything, it has to be corrected, end of story.

Tom C.

Doing what? Working on the stove? Whereby I may be implicitly approving it by working on it...I'm not starting up the unit. I am explicitly calling out that it is not right and I put a stamp of FAILED on it. An auto mechanic can work on a car that fails a safety inspection. If I explain the situation to the customer, make notes of how to bring it into compliance, do not start the stove and have them sign off on my findings and (language from my form) I should be okay.

"This unit has failed inspection due to ______ and should not be used until the following corrections are made_______. Failure to adhere to this notice is not safe and may lead to seriously injury, property damage or death to you and others."

It's not like I am trying to sneak something by here. I run into this stuff a lot and this is how I have chose to deal with it. What should I do? I drove 2 hrs to get there, there is nothing really wrong with the stove itself....I cannot vacuum out the firebox and inspect the unit? I could see if I work on it and don't say anything...or start up the unit after I find out that it failed...I disagree with your assessment.

 

[jeffoc]

I kind of think of it like this. If you tell the owner the risks It's on their shoulders. And if he/she has someone there doing the work they must at least care a little bit.
If this was found by a home inspector the unit would have to be fixed before the house could be sold.

 

[Lousyweather]

Bit of a sticky wicket, there. In my experience, and we've seen several potentially dangerous installations, people dont like to hear that their work can kill them. In fact, they get downright mad sometimes, when you point out things like 3 appliances in one flue. Water heater, furnace, pellet stove....hey, its been running like this for a few years, hasnt killed us yet, so you are full of sh*t....besides that, I dont wanna pay you $500 to fix it......

Ethically speaking, I think we all realize that as a learned, licensed, and insured technician, we have the responsibility to point out to the operator/owner/landlord that the stove installation (or condition!) is exceedingly unsafe, that their life, the lives of loved ones, the lives of First Responders, and their property is in jeopardy due to the appliance they have called you in to repair and/or clean. I can also imagine that any jury would also find you complicit in part, at least, to any casualties, both in body and property, due to the unit you worked on being the cause of said casualties. Heck, just the legal expenses alone would likely sink you for your defense....attorney's billable fees being around $300/hr and up for this kind of thing......thats alot of repairs!

Put my vote in for seeing the deficiency, pointing it out verbally and in writing (and Im on the fence whether it should be pointed out to the local building dept. as well), and leaving the property until the deficiencies are rectified. I also would take no money for the advice, as taking money can be construed as a contractual agreement, and once again, you own the issue (maybe). If its simply a UL listed appliance not installed according to the manual, local code, and/or NFPA211, I would provide a quote to rectify the issue, but would not commence doing ANY billable work until an agreement or rectification were made. Non UL-listed....no, I think I'd walk away.

 

[Mike D]

A couple of things I see here:
1. By posting this on here you have probably just given any attorney enough to prove that you knew there was a problem.
2. I wouldn't take the advice of anyone on this forum in such a serious legal matter. What if the house burns down and people get hurt? You know the insurance company, family attorney etc. is going to find out that you were there and didn't (or did) warn the family - especially with your training and certifications. And if you did warn the family and knew there was a potential for a fire etc., they are still going to sue you for not doing more or raising it to the local fire department.
3. That said, I would spend the couple of hundred dollars to meet with an attorney and get a written opinion and perhaps a letter/waiver drafted from the attorney that he feels you could use in these situations. That should cover you better than any advice here.

Just my two cents.

And no, I'm not an attorney... I just play one on TV

 

[smwilliamson]

How do car mechanics get away with it?

 

[smwilliamson]

Listen, I was there. I told them the issue, they paid me for my consulting, travel and expenses...their stove failed. I wrote out a legal document and had them sign it. YES I KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM and I publicly will say so.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Here is a great solution!

Just open 3 Harman Dealerships and hire some good store managers. Only Service The Stoves You Sell. Sell the required amount so they give you a car like the Merrimack NH Harman Dealer. He picked out a brand new mustang! Then drive to each store to check on things and count the money coming in! Problem Resolved!

 

[smwilliamson]

Only servicing the stoves you sell is a terrible consumer model, there is more to making a living than just making money. The is an inherent social aspect to selling consumer goods that require maintenance. Having the knowledge to solve problems but refusing to do so is rude...I do not care what kind of FREE car they give you.

 

[fedtime]

The way I see it, you have two options: find out now if your insurance provider will cover you in the event of a claim, or wait until you get sued, and then find out if your insurance provider will cover you.

How you make the determination is an open question. Some folks just ask their insurance company for an answer in writing (which they may or may not give with any clarity); others get a lawyer to pursue the answer for them/render an opinion on the issue. If my business were on the line, I'd probably choose option #2.

If you are without insurance, limiting your liability should be the focus. Again, a lawyer can help you structure your business with that in mind.

 

[Lousyweather]

Hello

Here is a great solution!

Just open 3 Harman Dealerships and hire some good store managers. Only Service The Stoves You Sell. Sell the required amount so they give you a car like the Merrimack NH Harman Dealer. He picked out a brand new mustang! Then drive to each store to check on things and count the money coming in! Problem Resolved!

dang, Don, we are one of the bigger Harman dealers, and I didnt get no stinkin' stang! There isnt a required amount though, far as Im aware.......hm........

 

[Defiant]

Hello

Here is a great solution!

Just open 3 Harman Dealerships and hire some good store managers. Only Service The Stoves You Sell. Sell the required amount so they give you a car like the Merrimack NH Harman Dealer. He picked out a brand new mustang! Then drive to each store to check on things and count the money coming in! Problem Resolved!

Donny you sniffing to many paint fumes?

 

[Lousyweather]

Only servicing the stoves you sell is a terrible consumer model, there is more to making a living than just making money. The is an inherent social aspect to selling consumer goods that require maintenance. Having the knowledge to solve problems but refusing to do so is rude...I do not care what kind of FREE car they give you.

there IS more to a living than making money, thats for sure. Self-respect, quality of life, and the list goes on. But I do submit that your life is better WITH money than being destitute. Both a rich man and a poor man can be miserable,but the advantage to being rich is, you can PICK your misery!

Scott's business is servicing stoves, he hardly has the advantage of being able to not service the stoves he sells. Possibly the confusion here is servicing stoves under warranty? A non-warranted stove? Who cares who sold it? Fix it for a fair price, all's good. Under warranty, and no other payment other than what the manufacturer pays? Well, maybe that IS best left to the selling dealer. We have beat this to death in other posts tho.

 

[tfdchief]

Wow, that is a tough one. As an inspector, I have tort immunity. I would check with my insurance carrier and my attorney. I know you said your insurance didn't really say. If my insurance carrier wouldn't give me answers to how and when I was covered or not covered, I would change Insurance.

 

[papa bears stove]

Some of you may remember the form which I posted showing how I verify installations at each service. I started doing this form to try and limit the risk exposure my company has with providing service.

I run into a lot of homeowner installs (and professional) which do not meet UL requirements etc...but should I not be allowed to work on the unit? Many of us in the industry would no, the unit needs to be installed the right way. As a professional, and by virtue of my licenses and NFI Certification, I am supposed to follow NFPA 211 standards as well as local and state codes.

So yesterday I'm at a customer's home working on a Tasman Insert, I perform the front end service and then pull it out to perform the rear end service and run my form...

Uh oh! This unit is installed into an old Heatilator zero clearance box. This unit as an insert is only approved for Masonry. So, I have to fail the installation.

Question is....can I still clean the stove if the homeowner signs my form saying that the stove is installed against it's UL listing and that it should not be used until the problem is corrected. Obviously, I'm not going to start it up either...cause it's not safe.

What say you?

1) I am curious to know if a liner was installed inside the pipe?
2) What does the owners manual say if installed in a zero clearance fireplace?
3) Was any part of the fireplace altered in any way to fit the insert inside it?

 

[Defiant]

1) I am curious to know if a liner was installed inside the pipe?
2) What does the owners manual say if installed in a zero clearance fireplace?
3) Was any part of the fireplace altered in any way to fit the insert inside it?

Welcome Papa, enjoy the knowledge, we welcome your questions and input.

 

[papa bears stove]

Thank you Defiant. Good to be here!!

 

[RiddleMasterMorgon]

common sense: The owner of the house can do whatever he wants, and needs to stand for the consequences. You gave them all the information needed to be an informed citizen - if they light it up...their fault alone.

Sadly, common sense is less common than one would think and lawsuit lottery is a reality. I still dont see why you are responsible for policing your customers though. The car sticker example is a good one. Its the car owner carrying the obligation to fix the issue and the police to enforce it....not the garage owner.

If you are close to a University/Law school, this owuld be a great example for a seminar work....or just pay the 200 USD for an opinion....and please let us know