long term planning and resale value (Froling, Haase Energy Tank, Tankless water heater, Solar DHW)

I am in the planning stages of converting my house to something other than oil. House is 2700sq ft in central mass, reasonably insulated, baseboard heat. I insulated my attic this past fall (~30" depth of fiberglass batts and blown fiberglass).

I installed a MT Vernon AE pellet insert last February and I have been heating the house with it since. It has reduced my oil consumption by about 120-130 gallons/month. I am still using about 50 gallons/month of oil for DHW. If you work out the math, that is about $1200 to $1500/year for hot water, at today's rates.

I investigate a propane tankless water heater. About $2000 to install. I need to get propane on the property, but I have to anyway for a new propane stove that I just installed in my renovated kitchen.

Now, I am looking at Solar for DHW. Perhaps SunMaxx evacuated tubes. With that, I need a storage tank, and perhaps one that works with a wood gasification boiler.

That brought me to storage tanks. I like the Haase Energy tanks because it includes 3 HX. I am trying to get a price on the 730 or 940 tanks. I could build one, but I want something that looks professionally done. I do all the projects around my house, including my kitchen, wood floors, etc, but I thought maybe looking at commercial for the tank, mainly because I only have so much time.

My plan is to install in the following order, as funds allow:
1) storage tank with 3 hx
2) evacuated tubes solar panels
3) propane tankless water heater for backup
4) remove oil boiler and install gasification wood boiler
5) install a propane backup furnance, vented somehow

I can see steps 1-3 adding to the value of the house.

But step 4 is where I am having trouble. I can put up with adding wood to a furnace every day or every few days, but will the next owner?

I have one flue for the existing boiler. I don't want to add another chimney stack. Which means swapping out the current boiler. Perhaps this is why people go with OWB.

I was consider a dual fuel boiler, like the Tarm Excel but it's propane side is a compromise. The froling 3000 looks like my kind of boiler but it isn't dual fuel. I thought I could add a propane furnace later as a backup that was a direct vent. Perhaps put a tankless on each of my two zones as a backup. The problem is my furnace is on the front side of our house, which means the vents would be visible.

I am trying to consider resale value and I don't think going with a gasification boiler alone makes sense.

Do people consider resale value?

Are there anyone with only gasification boilers? I suspect more in europe.

Are any wood gasification boilers direct vent?

Any comments welcomed.

Seems like you're thinking this through pretty well, and I think you're correct on resale. IMHO, any house which doesn't have some type of "flip the switch, set it and forget it" heat source will suffer at resale time. You may find the perfect person willing to tend the system, but it significantly cuts down on the pool of possible buyers.

The flip side is, you are doing a lot of other work which probably won't turn a profit at resale either. Storage tanks, HX's, solar panels, etc. I suppose if you are planning on 10+ years to resell, and energy prices skyrocket again, you might come out ahead. But if you're looking for a relatively quick resale and/or energy prices remain moderate, I'd bet not a lot of people will care two cents about the solar. The general public memory span just isn't that long!

It has long been my own goal to completely eliminate all of my grid electric and fossil fuel use, and until I can, minimize it as much as possible. It sounds like you have similar goals. Given unlimited funds, this could all happen tomorrow. Given limited funds, the priority in which things are done is extremely important in order to maximize the return on investment. If I install the things with best return on investment first, then I can save more money quicker to allow my to install additional things faster.

Having said that, you have already made the first investment in insulation (30" in the attic - wow! make sure the hatch is sealed well...). Assuming that the rest of your house is reasonably insulated, there may be nothing more to do in this regard. However, has do you have insulated above-ground basement walls? Are the floors above the basement insulated? If not, that is probably worth a look. I'm guessing that the pellet stove is probably going to return your investment in 3-5 years. Based on calculations I've done for my house (much different than yours, of course), the next best investment for me (now that I have installed a small wood stove) would be as follows:

1. Replace the current 30+ year oil boiler with a more efficient direct vent unit that also makes hot water, which frees up the chimney for the...
2. Gasification wood boiler with water storage
3. Solar electric
4. Solar DHW

This is predicated on the fact that I must have a working "turn the switch" heat source for the house before I do anything else. Of course, if you have two chimneys, it would make sense to just add the gasification wood boiler first, and never switch out the old oil boiler since it would be unlikely to be used much and it's poor efficiency would not likely cost you much.

Unfortunately, solar DHW, for me, has a very long return on investment. It is only my wife and I (no kids), we live in a relatively cold (and cloudy) climate, and we have reduced our hot water usage so much already (<200kWh/month for hot water at a night time electric rate) that it would never return the investment over the life of the solar DHW system. Plus, once I've made the investment in the gasification wood boiler, DHW comes pretty cheap and easy from that, so the payback gets even longer. If you had a 5 person family with teenage kids that used tremendous amounts of hot water, or if you lived in a warmer, sunnier climate, I could see that the payback might be different.

My mantra has been to reduce, reduce, and reduce consumption as much as possible first, then make investments in more efficient and alternative fuel appliances. We have reduced our electric usage to 200 kWH/month for all but DHW (including stove, range, and dryer) and to 200 kWH/month for DHW. We invested about $4k in insulating the walls and above-ground basement foundation walls. We added 16" of insulation to the attic (now R-50) and sealed the hatch up really well (cost ~$1200) and insulated the floors to R-19 (cost ~$700). Then the small wood stove came next (~$2500 with pipe and install). The house went from burning 1000 gallons of oil a year to <500, and now with the wood stove (first year), I expect I'll be below 250 gallons (and would be less if I was here full time). When oil hit $4.50 last winter, I was sure happy I had done all this.

Good luck on all your projects.

The way I look at it is your trying to move the earth to save on 50 gallons of oil/month and maybe the difference in price between pellets and wood. The Haas tanks will run you 8-10 grand, a wood gasification boiler 8-10 grand, plus installing new on demand tankless heater and furnace of some sort. There's like a lot invested in this to save a little. Granted pellets are more expensive than chunk wood but a whole lot easier to deal with. I personally see a segment of the population that will not burn wood, especially the elderly. I know since I put in my evacuated tube system it has generated interest even from that segment of people who I would have bet never would have considered solar panels. Though I think people have short memories the last energy crisis was a good one to remember. What's my point? Given your current energy situation, a solar DHW system with electric backup (or the propane tankless unit) giving you free energy year round combined with the tax credits available gives a good bang for the buck. Combined with the pellet insert I think you have the best resale outlook. This way you maintain a widely sellable house if that's your concern. I think a wood boiler is great-just not for everybody. And exclusively trying to rely on it would make resale a problem. Like what was said before-first get your energy conservation measures up as best you can.

Mike

Thanks for the replies. I do have some work in my basement to do. I can insulate the walls. I do have insulation under the floors, but I need to replace them because mice love to live in them. All my doors and windows are very good (double paned, argon, Low-E).

I have a foam cover for my attic steps. I just put a seal around the opening as well. I also have fiberglass in the whole house fan opening.

I love bouncing ideas off, just to see how far off I am. The gasification boiler was really causing me concern. I just brought in a ton of pellets into my basement and that wasn't that fun.

Mike, I have been reading your thread with great interest.

50 gallons/month doesn't' sound like much, but that cost me $2500 last year. This year it is half that. But in 10 years, it could cost me between $12,000 to $25,000, assuming this years rate, or last years rate and you know Oil is going to go up.

I plan to be here for at least another 10 years.

I can't do electric for backup. Mainly because I just had my underground wires replaced and the electrician replaced them with the same size as before. He had a complicated formula based upon distance from the transformer and average electrical load. You would think that if I had 200 amp service, I would get wires rated for 200 amps, but that wasn't the case. Of course, he explained this after the wires were getting back filled. Inspector agreed. So, I would rather not put additional electrical load on the house.

But, I want to minimize the different fuel sources the house needs.
1) Propane->stove, future tankless water heater
2) Oil->baseboard heat
3) Pellets->optional

I want to eliminate oil if I can. I looked into the freewatt system, and perhaps that is a better way to go, but that is costly!

What would you suggest for heat storage that would work with the solar DHW? I agree that the Haase energy tank is a bit over kill but not if combined with a gasification boiler.

So, if you don't do a gasification boiler, what storage should I look into for Solar? DIY?

I use oil, propane, wood and solar. I used to do electric but switched to propane for the dryer, cooktop, fireplace. I do want to make the jump to gasification eventually but I really want to focus on solar first to minimize all fuel use. I like burning wood but about 4-5 cords is enough for a season and I would like to do even less.

A solar storage tank's size would be based on the amount of hot water used in a typical day an the overall system sized accordingly. Me? I have a 120 Sunmaxx tube system that feeds a 120g tank which can circulate through a 40 g tank for 160 gallons. I plan on adding a 600-800 gallon tank to charge for radiant heating with automatic switchover. I will then probably go to 180 tubes. Right now I have no problem getting the tank over 150F by 1:00PM and then try and use some hot water. I will also heat a pool in the summer. I think a 120 gallon tank is ideal with the appropriate amount of tubes to charge it. Where is Hubbardston? You can't expect heat every day but have to look over the course of a year on the heat gain. I like solar because the fuel is FREE and everything is on autopilot. I only hear the pump come on around 9-9:30AM. A solar preheat tank should not use other sources to charge it since btu collection is more efficient at lower temps. If/when I get to the wood boiler storage part I will keep wood and solar collection separate for that reason. I am always going to have my oil boiler for backup which I will turn off in April and maybe on in October. I like having some diversity in which fuel source to use. If I had a free source of wood I would say go for the gassifier first. I want to add if your oil boiler has a tankless coil and needs to be kept hot then besides a tankless water heater you may want to consider an indirect tank off the oil boiler setup for cold start.

Mike

Hubbardston is north central Massachusetts. It usually gets colder than towns on the coast of Maine. In-laws live in Machias, ME.

Kai Haase sent me the stratification numbers on his tanks. The bottom few feet could be less than 120F while the top is over 160F. So, I could see the solar HX dumping heat at the bottom of the tank, assuming that is where the solar HX coils are in his tank. His tanks are very well insulated. It loses about 1 degree/24 hours.

I am surprised you can only get your 160 gallons to 150F, but it is the middle of winter. Is this after taking a shower or two in the morning?

I have two acres of trees that need to come down. Not a lot to be running a gasifier on.

I haven't priced a sunmaxx 30 yet so it is a bit hard to forecast ROI when I spend about $1200-2000/year on DHW. Siliconsolar isn't posting the prices.

I only have 105 tubes up and running but keep in mind there is only 6 hours of so of useable sun right now on a good clear day. I have been up to 165F but hot water also gets used for showers,laundry, dishwasher, etc while it is heating up. My high shutdown is at 165F so I try and use hot water before that happens. We are on the lowest month for solar gain. My tubes have run even at near 0F as long as there is sun. I've measured the stratification in my own tank and there can be a big separation. I've got to get my radiant floor tubes going. The Haas tanks looks nice but pricey as they all are.

Mike

I'd look at getting the best bang for your dollar...

First off, I agree that getting rid of your "automatic" central heating system is a very bad idea unless you never plan on selling your house... Even then, I'm sure there will come a day when you either get too old, or tired of feeding your wood dragon, or you'll need to leave the house for a period of time and need an automatic system.

As stated above, the payback on a wood boiler/storage tank is probably not worth it, especially given your other issues with the flue/central heating system.

Propane... I don't think I'd want to give up oil for propane. Historically propane has been more costly than oil and I don't ever see that changing. Yes oil prices will go up in the future, but the same can be said of propane as well. Having a single fuel would be nice, but it doesn't make much economic sense just so you can consolidate.

I also burn pellets. While I've saved some money over the years, I've found pellet prices are hot and cold. Buy when prices are low and sit on them. Like wood I would suggest staying a year ahead so you don't have to worry about getting bent over during the bad years (2005, 2008/9). I also burn wood, but I harvest this myself. As you probably know, pellets require a little work, but wood requires a lot more. Gasification boiler or stove, it doesn't mater, both require significant work. If you're not able to harvest your own wood (and actually like doing so), it can still be a little costly when you consider the money and time you have to put into it. But since you want a wood boiler, I assume you know this and are willing to do the work.

In your situation, I would suggest keeping your existing central heating system. It's free & paid for, plus it covers your resale and backup needs. I'd suggest burning pellets and wood in the main living area(s) rather than from a boiler. I'd probably sell the pellet insert and install a wood stove (or wood insert) in that location. This way you can burn free or cheap wood, just as you intended to do with the boiler, but you won't have the loss of utilizing a central heating system (your heat will stay in the living area rather than some of it going into the basement and walls). Since you seem to like the pellets, stick with them. One of the nice things about pellet stoves is they can be direct vented, so they can be placed almost anywhere. Find another location in the house for a freestanding pellet stove and direct vent it. Between the two stoves, you should have no problem evenly heating 2700 sq ft... and you're doing it with pellets and wood like you wanted to do, but without the loss of a central heating system, which can be more significant than most people realize. Both wood and pellet stoves can easily be (re)moved and certainly won't hurt your resale value if you decide to sell the house. This approach isn't high tech, but it's fairly cheap and very cost effective.

While your heating needs are now covered, you still have that pesky DHW issue. I'd suggest a two fold approach. The first be conservation. I would closely look to see how and why you're using so much hot water and do what you can to minimize its usage (install low flow shower nozzles, lower the temp settings on your boiler/hot water, etc). Doing a full solar DHW system might make sense, but the payback is still going to be fairly long if you want to go with top of the line pricey components (such as an $8k storage tank). You might want to consider a lower cost system (possibly lower tech?) which might not fully meet your needs, but would still dramatically reduce your current costs. Having a cheapo storage tank hooked to an inexpensive solar system should drastically reduce your fuel usage. You don't need an $8k tank, a DIY would certainly work fine and give you flexibility and options. Even having something as small and simple as using a used 80 gal insulated tank(s) would dramatically lower your delta and decrease your fuel consumption. If you want to keep your existing oil boiler, consider getting a separate indirect hot water tank if you haven't done so already. In the winter you can add a DHW loop to a wood stove/insert as well. Another option might be a heat pump hot water heater. They use about 1/2 to 1/3 the electricity of traditional electrical resistance heaters, so I'm sure your existing wiring would handle this load. Doing these things should DRASTICALLY reduce the fuel you're using today to heat your DHW.

This leaves your electrical requirements. I don't think the payback on an electric solar system makes much sense today. At some point we'll have inexpensive flexible PV panels which are used in place of shingles, but today's systems are lackluster and expensive. I'd suggest holding off until the technology improves and production of the components becomes more economical.

I know my recommendations are not cutting edge, but there are fairly inexpensive and will give you significant independence and a relatively quick payback. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

For a solar DHW storage tank, check out the Marathon water heaters. These are electric hot water heaters but can be used as a solar DHW storage system. They are available in large sizes (80 and 120 gal) and are polybutylene (no anode, no glass lined metal tank that will fail and leak). The warranty can't be beat, and I recall the polybutylene has a rating of 180 degrees max. They have 3" of insulation (very well insulated) for low heat loss. The cost of the larger tanks isn't much more than a good conventional storage tank.

Drawbacks - they don't built-in heat exchangers, so you have to use an external one. Regardless of the type chosen, make sure to install a heat trap on the connections to avoid losing heat out the hot water outlet (and cold water inlet) pipes.

I purchased a 50 gallon one for my hot water needs. Very pleased with it. Maybe someday I'll use it as a pre-heater for a small solar DHW system.

For solar collectors, evacuated tube are usually a better bet in northern climates. For tax credits, make sure to purchase ones that are SRCC rated. Last I checked (about a year ago) SunMaxx collectors still didn't have SRCC certification. That doesn't mean that they aren't good quality - just means that they don't have the official certified test results that allow them to be part of a solar DHW system that qualifies for Federal tax credits.

I think you'll find the Sunmaxx collectors are all SRCC rated now.

Mike

steam man:
The sunmaxxes are all SRCC certified now
I am going to install 120 Sunmaxx evac tubes this spring and want to put it through mnvesy 660 gal Stss tank connected to a tarm 200 excel. tryng to figure out how to keep the tarm warm during the down months to eliminated moisture problems. any suggestions?

Galroc
a round homebuilt unpressurized storage tank can sized to your needs and built cheaply. I would look into that for storage.

Tim

Fossilfree,

I am thinking of doing that. I looked at Haase Energy tanks but the local dealer hasn't responded to my inquiries, plus the cost is very expensive. Kai Haase has been very responsive, but he isn't the local dealer.

I might follow what Greg H did here:
http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/28150/

I have an old pool that is no longer in use. I can take the aluminium and use it to form a cylinder. Then build a square frame around it, then pour in urethane insulation (good to 200F). The foam insulation can be structural. http://www.masterpkg.com/spray-foam-insulation.htm Then use a pond liner.

I then hope to have 5 HX. (Solar, Boiler, DHW, Radiant Heating, 1 for future expansion, ie. optional for under walkway or driveway).

I am looking at the e-classic 2300 right now as a boiler. It can be kept outside, and I wouldn't have to disturb my oil boiler. There is a nice rebate on it until the end of the month.

If I don't get the e-classic 2300 now (which I don't think I can run past April), I will put in Sunmaxxes, then the e-classic next year.

That is my plan for now.

My tank (stss) has two layers of 1" foil faced foam board inside the metal cylinder. They are sliced with pie shaped vertical cuts inside before forming them which allowed the sheets to wrap without kinking. The foam boards keep the epdm off metal and shield it from rivet puntures. There is Blue styro on bottom which fits inside the walls, allowing the metal to sit directly on the floor. I put a tarp underneath to help alleviate concrete/metal reaction. The circular walls will provide all the structural integrity you need it you rivet them together very well. Where are you putting the tank? If it is relatively dry, Fiberglass wrap aroung the outside would definitely be the least expensive for the most R's The square box is sort of overkill and will take alot of foam. Urethanes of either type out gas and lose R value over time.

Tim

Galroc - If you do decide to do the project, I would love to come over and check out the system once installed. (I'm 4 houses from the Hubbardston line...actually, taking a run in Hubbardston around lunch time today
Good luck with the project!

Ironically right now I am firing some large laid up marine boilers once in a while to keep them dry. I think a down boiler will really only have problems if the ambient temp gets below the dew point and moisture shows up. As long as the boiler is not cold it should do ok. I would make sure it is cleaned well. Some boiler mfgs suggest oiling surfaces down with mineral oil for preserving. I used some cans of a dessicant absorbent powder in my airplane to keep moisture down. Placing a small lightbulb in a sealed boiler works but would be better with a thermostat to prevent wasting energy. One other idea would be to back feed hot water from the storage tank to the boiler at times to help keep it dry. Unless your in a damp location it should be ok. I like it cleaned if anything.

I just installed a modine unit heater in my basement as a heat dump from my collectors if the storage tank temp gets too high. It works really well. It takes a big bite out of wood burning now. I'll use that unit until my pool is up and running. Need any advise/help on your solar install just let me know.

Mike

I don't really have dampness issues in the basement. The unit heater is supposed to be a stop gap solution until I get a large storage tank installed with radiant floor tubes hooked up. It does work really well though you get heat only when the sun shines. With the whole basement warm it should keep the house warm for some hours after sundown with insulated walls. The bang for the buck is hard to beat. It is cool though with everything in automatic. It'll probably be with me for awhile.

Mike

Which line? Gardner, Templeton, Rutland, Barre...etc?

Ok, sure will. Where do you run? I have been running on the treadmill. Still too cold to get out, but when I do, I run down by Barre Falls Dam.

The only one you didn't mention, Westminster.
Good luck on the project!

I am still in the planning stages but I am getting closer to deciding on how I want my project designed.

I am working through a $$ quote from Radiantec for a radiant heating system for my house. I want to replace my baseboards with radiant. I hate baseboards because they look like crap after a few years, especially the ones next to a toilet when you got a son in the house. :lol: I am slowly renovating this house, which initially meant removing the popcorn from the ceilings, but will now be replace the ceilings all together and then install radiant. Plus, radiant will allow me to store effectively heat my house with water down to 120, and store more BTUs in a storage tank.

I am working with Radiantec to come up with a system. Right now it is 4 zones covering 2500 sq ft. They specced it out to 35BTUs/sq ft, which works out close to 87500BTUs/hr. I was able to heat my house with a MT. Vernon AE Pellet insert which is rated for 60,000BTUs/Hr (input), but it really only heated the first floor and second floor got below 60 on the coldest days. I was using 2 bags of pellets/day which works out to 27K BTUs/hr (8000BTUs/lb*80lbs/24hours, input). So, I think I am safe a <90K BTU radiant heating system.

I also finally decided on a great place in my basement for the storage tank. Who would have thought that needed a lot of thought but it did.

I plan on using a dedicated gasifier instead of a dual fuel like the Tarm Excel, perhaps the Froling? Dump my oil boiler all together. What you say? I am thinking of installing a tankless water heater, not to heat the radiant floors directly or my DHW directly, but to heat the storage tank, which will store heat for DHW, and heat for the house. What do you think about that?

The tankless's job would be to make sure that the storage doesn't drop below 120 degrees. At 200,000BTUs/hr, it should be able to do that. Therefore, I only need one single backup for both the DHW, and house heat. Also, I can later install solar to bring the storage tank to 120 degrees during the Summer and not run the gasifier, or the tankless heater.

I hope to be in the house for the long haul! I put way too much work to get it to where it is now. Improving a house is a disease, and I hope by staying where I am, I can avoid improving another house

I will post in the boiler room about using a tankless water heater as a backup for a wood boiler. Thanks!