the Cape is a market unto its own....seems folks make a better margin there than in most other parts of the Northeast......captive market, maybe....who knows?
Looking at Harmon Pellet stove/inserts/coal stokers ?
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the Cape is a market unto its own....seems folks make a better margin there than in most other parts of the Northeast......captive market, maybe....who knows?
Its a mad frenzy, just about anything coming over the bridge seems marked up. Most or many of us go off cape or online shopping. It costs a bit more to live here, retail charges full price sometimes and on and on it goes.
Coal you can understand, any big supplier is off cape, it costs money to run a truck 50 miles out of Boston to a limited market. It was different in the hay day of coal when we had some coal yards down here. Now a few places stock bags. The Iron House has a small bin of bulk coal you can pick up from but they sold their delivery truck. They will scoop that into your truck or you can bring your own 5 gal buckets, it's 6.50 a bucket full which they estimate to be 40lb. Pellets are becoming the rage here. That Iron House used to be all about coal, now its gas units and pellet stoves mostly.
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SmokeEater
Feeling the Heat
I load the hopper by hand and it will hold five bags. I have a 100 gallon buffer tank that is stainless and is potable water that I use to heat the house and for DHW. The snap switch on the potable tank is connected to the aquastat on a one gallon per hour fuel oil boiler. If I'm away, the oil boiler will take over if the pellet boiler is out of fuel.
Hoot23
Minister of Fire
That's a great price for a good quantity of coal, in a different market than mine unfortunately.
Went looking at more stoves today. We went to a Breckwell ( spelling) dealer and saw a free standing stove and an insert. The insert was tiny, the free standing stove I didn't care for the pot design on compared with Harmon, though it looked made of excellent materials otherwise. It's literally a pot in that stove, looks like a pain to scrape, where Harmon you can keep the fire going.
We looked at a new Harmon P61A at a dealer who had it on display and also in stock. The other dealer last week had the P68 on display and a well used straight P61 ( $1500). The used was in stock obviously but he orders in new stoves on request or upon purchase with a 7-15 day delivery time during the holidays. So I have now seen a new P61A and a new P68. Both dealers feel either stove would do the job, the dealer today feels the P68 is not needed in our situation.
The Harmon dealer we went to today is also a St Croix dealer. I saw one we liked, actually I liked it quite a lot but the dealer said it's more work to maintain than the Harmon. It also doesn't really supply the BTUs of the 61A either, so guess that's out. Actually there were two St Croix stoves I liked. They are a Heatalator dealer as well, didn't look at those.
We swung buy Lowes since we were passing by and checked out the pellets first hand, they had three brands in stock all the same price. They had some less expensive stoves on display of which a Summers looked best but I can't imagine it compares with a top name stove like Harmon or Breckwell. They were not of much interest to us.
I have not 100% decided which stove is it, except that inserts are out and free standing is in and I'm leaning towards the P61A vs P68 thus far. And I like those two St Croixs but they may not do the job, so senseless thinking about them.
We looked at a new Harmon P61A at a dealer who had it on display and also in stock. The other dealer last week had the P68 on display and a well used straight P61 ( $1500). The used was in stock obviously but he orders in new stoves on request or upon purchase with a 7-15 day delivery time during the holidays. So I have now seen a new P61A and a new P68. Both dealers feel either stove would do the job, the dealer today feels the P68 is not needed in our situation.
The Harmon dealer we went to today is also a St Croix dealer. I saw one we liked, actually I liked it quite a lot but the dealer said it's more work to maintain than the Harmon. It also doesn't really supply the BTUs of the 61A either, so guess that's out. Actually there were two St Croix stoves I liked. They are a Heatalator dealer as well, didn't look at those.
We swung buy Lowes since we were passing by and checked out the pellets first hand, they had three brands in stock all the same price. They had some less expensive stoves on display of which a Summers looked best but I can't imagine it compares with a top name stove like Harmon or Breckwell. They were not of much interest to us.
I have not 100% decided which stove is it, except that inserts are out and free standing is in and I'm leaning towards the P61A vs P68 thus far. And I like those two St Croixs but they may not do the job, so senseless thinking about them.
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Micmann
New Member
Sometimes people discount the P61 because of its looks. Yes the P61 is not the prettiest gal in the crowd, but she'll treat you right till death do you part. Don't get hung up on all looks if that is influencing your decision. The P61 will easily handle your main focus of generating heat, and look reasonably well doing it.
You are correct of course and yes it is looking more and more like the P61 is going to be the pick of the litter. It seems to be the fool proof, bullet proof, most efficient in terms of fuel use and cleaning, real heat maker. It's a bit more utilitarian than we had in mind going into this but it checks all the right boxes and decent looking too. It gets us away from coal and oil and does a reliable job by all accounts, hard to beat that. Both dealers faces lit up when we walked up to the both the P61 and the P68, they both spoke with confidence, no sales pitch with that stove. Both stated they give off respectable radiant heat.
I missed one point today while at the dealer that I meant to return to. He stated that one function or the other was 30% of the stoves heating capability. I didn't catch if he meant the blown heat or the radiant heat ? And actually my wife thinks he meant that the radiant part of the heat would be 30% of what the coal stove gives us. I don't know how he would figure that out having never witnessed the coal stove in action but that's what she thinks and of course she is never wrong so I won't argue over the point!
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Micmann
New Member
I would think he meant 30% radiant since the bulk of heat is blown. But from experience I would say its more 80/20, but that's just me.
Well you are using the stove and he is selling the stove, big difference as you report what's happening and he reports, with in reason, what he thinks I want to hear I imagine !!
We think so yes, the P61 appears to be the stove. Also the reviews on the st Croix are not any where near as favorable as the P61. It's hard to find a bad review of the P61 actually. You can dig around and find some sure but overall I'm not sure any stove come up as good in reviews besides the P68.
Pellet stove = Convection heater, I wouldn't use the radiant heat as a buying / selling point. The P series does get HOT compared to a lot of pellet stoves out there.
You will be laying on the floor to vacuum out the fines box, a 5 minute task once you have it down. (Monthly)
Some knee work for vacuuming out the stove (Monthly) I have a 90* right after my exhaust leaves the stove, which I can vacuum from inside the stove, much easier then dealing with a TEE back there.
An annual chimney sweep isn't a bad idea either, but depending on your install/pellets bi-annually might be fine, I could probably goes a 2-3 years and not have a problem, but I sweep just because.
I burn 6 tons a year @ 1800 SQ FT, in a well insulated artic home.
You will be laying on the floor to vacuum out the fines box, a 5 minute task once you have it down. (Monthly)
Some knee work for vacuuming out the stove (Monthly) I have a 90* right after my exhaust leaves the stove, which I can vacuum from inside the stove, much easier then dealing with a TEE back there.
An annual chimney sweep isn't a bad idea either, but depending on your install/pellets bi-annually might be fine, I could probably goes a 2-3 years and not have a problem, but I sweep just because.
I burn 6 tons a year @ 1800 SQ FT, in a well insulated artic home.
We will be going through a plate in front of the fireplace as the coal stove is now. It's debatable if we will go up the chimney or out the back of the fireplace to outdoors but probably the latter ( my son in law is a mason, he can make that call but for cleaning purposes, out the back makes it a simple task I can do myself now or when I'm 83 ( 63 now).
Kneeling down to vacumm is not a big deal yet and lifting 40 lb bags is 10 lb lighter than 50 lb coal bags, so that's a gain. I lift 40lb speedy dry bags at work anyway ( not retired just yet) and 5 gal buckets of coal are about 36-40 lb anyway. A little ash every few days or a week or a month isn't anything, I take out two 3" deep pans heaping full of ash per day right now. Filling the hopper every two days or even once per day sounds great to me and scraping that little pot once per day takes about 30 seconds. The coal stove takes about a 20 minute service twice per day if I move quickly. That's a shaking and raking of the burning coal, bring in coal, top off let it catch, close it up dump the ash, close up the ash door. It takes about 25 lb of coal every 12- 13 hours, you have to be there to tend it. It's why I considered a stoker stove, then landed on pellets.
I feel coal is in jeopardy and or going to go astronomically expensive, and if not we still have the ash situation ( easy to store though, it makes 0 difference if it gets wet or even frozen, except do dig it out ). But just next month the EPA is starting another big attack on coal. Most of the coal yards around here have closed but pellets are everywhere from stove shops to HD and Lowes to hardware stores. Pellets get the EPA's blessing and there is even a $300 tax credit to buy a pellet stove right now till Dec 31.. There are only a couple of larger suppliers left of coal and they both are 45-50 miles away, they supply the few places here that have coal at all and those keep a minimum quantity as the demand just isn't there anymore.. Coals time is limited in this country and on the rise in China, go figure.
Bioburner
Moderator
I am using a PC45, its the same body as the p61 and have no problems with its quality or heating. Bought used. Knock on wood its working great, it better, its -8 now with an ugly amount of wind. Was supposed to go above zer0 but its to late to make it. I think that it's less than 20 percent radiant heat. Hot spot on sides rarely go over 140 taken with last years X-mas toy an infared thermometer when running at normal conditions. Will chew through 60-70 pounds of pellet corn blend.
Yes, well the inherent design of most pellet stove including the P series Harmon's don't suggest lending themselves well to radiant heating. Most of the flame surface area or direct heat area is against the heat exchanger which would transmit heat to the blown air. Anything else is rather just spillage. However some designs go a step further and actually shroud in the sides of the stove, so those would offer the least radiant heat.
I'm not after heat like I get from the coal stove anyway but it would be nice to have some radiating off of it just so there is a bit of a presence about the stove. It's been perhaps decades since I have had a stove thermometer on the stove but I seem to recall that it runs a lot at around 450 deg F. Turned down is less up is more. The hot spots on the stove are in front above the door and in the back just under where the baffle meets the back. Those spots run above the average for the rest of the stove but I don't recall how much hotter ( I once cooked the paint off the spot above the door though, accidentally left the ash door open !) and at the back spot is where I have my little fan directed that shoots heat towards the dining room. Actually the entire back runs pretty heated up.
We have a ceiling fan at the top of the stairway leading upstairs. It's over a step landing 3/4 of the way upstairs and that really helps hold the warm air down. However in the downstairs hall I believe I will put a second ceiling fan. That should serve to hold up more air and also mix and distribute air out into the kitchen area. I can put a little corner doorway fan in also if need be. THe thing about blown air is it is headed right for that front entry way and the stair to the upper chambers is right there, so we need to knock it down and aim it else where or it will all be up there.
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ZBrooks
Burning Hunk
Sounds similar to my house. I think I am going to need to put a ceiling fan in the entry way to regulate the amount of heat that travels up the stairway. I have several fans downstairs, so air movement shouldn't be a problem there. Getting it to the master bedroom, which is the furthest away from the stove, will be a bit of a challenge. I don't mind the room being cooler at night, but it takes awhile of laying on the Tempurpedic mattress to get it to soften up when it is cold.
Yes, if you have some heat collection spot in the house and a relatively high ceiling there then the ceiling fan should serve to knock the warm air down and distribute it our doorways.
I have out rooms too, the main offender is the kitchen extension which is 12x12 and has a higher ceiling than the rest of the kitchen, there is a ceiling fan in there already but first I need to try and get the heat that far out. Not sure with the Pellet stove, the coal stove sort of reaches out there but it's a pretty long run. maybe some directional doorways fans may help.
Meanwhile it looks like another coal distributor bit the bullet here. The guy in Easton Ma. I called the number and the phone has been disconnected. Online the site says Reported Closed. Unless there is a second distributor in Easton Ma that I'm not aware of, that would leave one main distributor for coal in this whole area, supplying all the little hardware store operations etc. I suppose something could come out of the Worcester area, not sure on that . What I do know is that pellets are everywhere !
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Yes, China is on a 10 year plan to build a coal-fired generating plant once a month for 10 years AND that is OUR coal they are burning, by the way! We outlaw it because of emissions to save the earth and they are burning it however they want to! Makes no sense to me! Coal is $172 a ton picked up at the breakers in Tamaqua, Pa FYI. The EPA is our worst enemy of the economy.
Bioburner
Moderator
Natural gas has went up over 25% the last quarter, that was- is being used to replace the coal fired plants.
You wouldn't think anthracite would be affected by all the EPA and governmental hoopla. Soft coal is what the big guys burn. The whole mess makes it feel like shaky ground. Anthracite burns pretty darned clean and here I am feeling under fire by crazy agencies. I'm all for clean air, I breath it too but I don't believe anthracite is the problem if there even is one.
Well anyway, I'm not driving to PA to pick up my coal but meanwhile it's just about at the freezing mark outside and 76 in my dining room, one room over from the living room where the coal stove is. And I haven't tended the stove for the evening yet ( was tended at 3:30 am this morning). Tonight is going into the teens and we have about 15 people headed here for evening Christmas eve festivities. They will be toasty !
Thing is, the stove is radiating heat and I have a fan behind it pushing towards the dining room. Not sure I can make a pellet stove do this. It's blower will be pushing 90 degs different than that. Well time will tell.
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AND the natural gas fired turbines used to generate the electricity lost by the shutdown of coal plants are very inefficient. That is why your summer electrical rates are much higher since they have to put the gas turbines on line.
Ohio, that gets 90% of its electricity from coal fired plants, voted for The One Who Cannot Be Named
??? Dumb. "Your energy costs will necessarily skyrocket" > BHO
Let's just say I'm not even considering a gas burning stove, especially since we have propane on site but not natural gas. The price of propane is as bad as oil here.
I have two pellet stoves down here in Georgia and had a coal stove when I lived in Reading, Pa. and I can tell you THERE IS NO COMPARISON as far as heat goes. Radiant heat is just about non-existent. If I lived back in Pa., I'd have a new Keystoker in a heartbeat.
Been looking at the Reading Allegheny Stoker, not that I don't love my home made jobber built 30 years ago. I've read about the Keystoker's online. If I just knew coal was stable in these parts. The wife is convinced coal is either going or going too high on price and I'm convinced it works just great. Damn, back in the conundrum !.
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