Looking for suggestions on combo boilers.

[Nuker]

Hi everyone,
I have been reading up on wood gasification boilers for the last week or so, and even though I have mostly been searching internet-wide, most of the good information has been from this site. So, I opened an account today and am making my first post.

I will try to post all the relevant information to my situation, but if I leave something out, please ask me. My last two houses had a gas furnace & a full electric central heat/AC respectively, so I am pretty new to all the boiler and hydronic type heating.

I have 20 acres of mixed hardwoods, a few more acres of soft woods, a good tractor and splitter already

My current setup:

I moved to my house in Southwestern New Hampshire this spring. The house was built in 1998, so it is reasonably well insulated, but the windows are getting a little leaky. It is a 2 story on top of a walk-out basement. The upper two stories are 2400sf, and the basement is 1000sf of full height with about 150sf of crawl space in the back.

The current heating setup is a Peerless WBV-3 oil boiler with a .85 nozzle on a Beckett burner @ 140psi (~90K BTUH ??), there is also a wood stove on the other end of the basement and an open fireplace on the first floor. The boiler supplies radiant heat into the basement floor and baseboard heaters in the first and second floor.

The basement is about 40' by 24' with 10 foot tall ceilings (extra tall because of walkout type built into a hill). The crawl space in the basement is poured concrete also.

What I want (I think, please comment):

I think I want a Biomass 40 w/oil backup OR similar size other wood gasser with oil backup. I also would have storage of 750-1250 gallons.

I want a combo unit because on the end of the house with the current oil boiler, there is only one chimney. The wood stove & fireplace are on the other end of the house 40 feet away, and I would like to keep them as is for heat during power outages. I also want to keep the oil option for trips away from the house, and for insurance/mortgage purposes.

I have no problem heating with the Peerless setup described, so I think the 40KW output should be fine, especially with storage. I may add heat to the 600sf attached garage later, but it wouldn't be used constantly, and I plan on replacing the windows & doors in the house soon so I think the added load would balance ok with the added efficiency of new windows. (I have 32 windows in the house & 4 exterior doors).

The reasons I like the Biomass is the forced draft, the oil burner with separate burn chamber, and relatively lower cost when compared to some of the higher end European models. If I was looking at a $20K+ boiler and all the extra costs, it would make me lean back toward geothermal. Geothermal is pretty expensive for this house since it sits on granite bedrock and would also need to be retrofitted for air vents.

 

[maple1]

I was checking out combos when I did my researching, and kind of came to the same conclusion that the Biomass was the best looking that I saw. On paper, at least.

You don't have access to natural gas by chance? Any propane in the house?

 

[Nuker]

I wish I had natural gas, I loved it at my last place in NY. Unfortunately it would be $$$$ for utilities to run it as the whole area around my place is on tons of granite, and there is a low home density in the area.

No propane on the place at all, but I did wonder if I added it later (wife wants gas range eventually) if I could change the burner on the Biomass to a propane model and get rid of oil completely.

 

[henfruit]

Could you power vent the oil and use that flu for a wood boiler?

 

[Nuker]

Could you power vent the oil and use that flu for a wood boiler?

I could, but the best place for a wood boiler is exactly where the oil boiler is now.

I think its only about 1000$ extra for the oil option on the Biomass, and that cost would be offset by needing less extra plumbing & control equipment than I would need with 2 separate boilers.

I also might be able to sell the Peerless (not for much I know), and help offset even more.

 

[Bad Wolf]

I put in a TARM Excel 2000. I don’t think they make that model anymore and I don’t see an equivalent unit. If I had to do it over I would try to have two separate units. You might be able to get a forced exhaust on a oil or gas furnace. I went with the combo for the same reason as you: I only had one flue.
The drawback with oil and storage is it’s not the most efficient set up. Since the oil is instant on/off there is no benefit to storage since you are not idling.
I’m going on my 6th winter and have been very pleased with the TARM. The 2000 was rated at 102,500 BTU/hr and heats my 3000 sq ft colonial just fine 95% of the time. Once in a while when it gets down to 5 degrees or so (like the night before last) it has trouble keeping up. I get about 4 hours burn time and with 1200 gallons of storage I can usually coast until the next fire.
Not sure how it stacks up to the Biomass cost wise but I thought it was a little pricy.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

I wish I had natural gas, I loved it at my last place in NY. Unfortunately it would be $$$$ for utilities to run it as the whole area around my place is on tons of granite, and there is a low home density in the area.

No propane on the place at all, but I did wonder if I added it later (wife wants gas range eventually) if I could change the burner on the Biomass to a propane model and get rid of oil completely.

So if I understand you wright, you don't mind paying the price of natural gas if it were available in your area.
Wood pellets are a little bit cheaper then natural gas.

Maybe you know , maybe not, NH has a 30% rebate with a max of $6,000 on a fully automated pellet boiler with bulk pellet storage.
have a look at this link: http://www.puc.nh.gov/Sustainable Energy/RenewableEnergyRebates-WP.html

 

[Nuker]

The Biomass is $7-8K for the boiler only, and I know storage would cost more.

I would isolate the storage if relying on the oil burner for any appreciable length of time.

 

[Nuker]

So if I understand you wright, you don't mind paying the price of natural gas if it were available in your area.
Wood pellets is a little bit cheaper the natural gas.

Maybe you know , maybe not, NH has a 30% rebate with a max of $6,000 on a fully automated pellet boiler with bulk pellet storage.
have a look at this link: http://www.puc.nh.gov/Sustainable Energy/RenewableEnergyRebates-WP.html

I have considered that, but the wood on my place is free. I probably have 2-3 years worth of wood just in downed trees that i am cleaning up in the spring.

I am not completely excluding a pellet furnace, but it would probably need an oil or gas backup as well? Even with the hopper on those, will a pellet furnace run long enough to be considered a primary heat source for an unattended house?

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

I would suggest to talk to some people in your area that switched to an automatic wood pellet boiler from oil or wood.
Do the $$$numbers for both and factor in some time for your labor for you and your wife, kids.
I'm biased, I sell pellet boilers.
But I burned wood for many years

 

[Nuker]

I would suggest to talk to some people in your area that switched to an automatic wood pellet boiler from oil or wood.
Do the $$$numbers for both and factor in some time for your labor for you and your wife, kids.
I'm biased, I sell pellet boilers.
But I burned wood for many years

I will read about them and definitely consider it. Like I said, I am looking for advice and comments, things I haven't thought of.
Thank you!

 

[Nuker]

I would suggest to talk to some people in your area that switched to an automatic wood pellet boiler from oil or wood.
Do the $$$numbers for both and factor in some time for your labor for you and your wife, kids.
I'm biased, I sell pellet boilers.
But I burned wood for many years

Oh and you are probably a great person to ask, do pellet boilers, with/without hopper quality as a main heating unit (for insurance/mortgage)?

If not, I would just be looking at adding the pellet boiler to my existing setup, and not completely replacing it. I don't think either one would be more or less work, I was just wondering for when I price out all the parts.

BTW, the guy that sits across from me at the office lived in Billerica, MA for a number of years, small world.

 

[Nuker]

Passion FF&W, I looked at your website and saw that the pellet boilers are direct vent. That is nice, I will read up on them over the next couple days and consider that option.

Anyone else, feel free to comment in relation to my original post and questions.

 

[maple1]

Wood pellets are a little bit cheaper then natural gas.

They are?

 

[Nuker]

They are?

I wouldn't doubt it depending on the time of year. we had huge swings in pricing of our natural gas in NY. It went from 8 dollars a therm to 11.50 in one or two months.

Either way, I am still mostly interested in wood boilers due to my current heating setup and the 26 acres of woods I own here.

 

[mr.fixit]

Keep in mind it takes considerable time to get 2 or 3 years ahead on your wood supply,as any gasser needs well seasoned wood.
And during the heating season it takes a fair amount of time to tend to the boiler each day,even with storage.

Things to keep in mind if you haven't been a full time wood burner.

 

[maple1]

I wouldn't doubt it depending on the time of year. we had huge swings in pricing of our natural gas in NY. It went from 8 dollars a therm to 11.50 in one or two months.

Either way, I am still mostly interested in wood boilers due to my current heating setup and the 26 acres of woods I own here.

Huh. I had thought that nothing was as cheap as NG. We don't have it here so I really don't know.

I'd also be trying to make use of the 26 acres.

You should also consider very carefully how much the oil would actually get used once you have a wood burner in. Seems to me that most everyone I've read about on here who has a combo oil rarely or never uses the oil side. In my case, I put in a wood boiler, and an electric one for backup, and got rid of my old wood/oil combo. It was only used one day last winter. Also put in a new 80 gallon electric DHW heater, that gets heated when wood about 80% of the year. If we were away more in the winter & needed a backup frequently, I likely would have went with the same wood boiler, with a new direct vent oil boiler.

Feels pretty good though not having an oil tank in the house anymore.

 

[velvetfoot]

Passion FF&W, I looked at your website and saw that the pellet boilers are direct vent. That is nice, I will read up on them over the next couple days and consider that option

Too bad the Windhager isn't direct vent.

 

[Nuker]

Keep in mind it takes considerable time to get 2 or 3 years ahead on your wood supply,as any gasser needs well seasoned wood.
And during the heating season it takes a fair amount of time to tend to the boiler each day,even with storage.

Things to keep in mind if you haven't been a full time wood burner.

I was a full time wood burner in my parents house, from 12 to about 17 it was my job to split and stack in the summer and keep the fire going all winter. My dad would drag up the logs with a mini-dozer and cut them into rounds, and it was my work from there.

I have been heating daily with my wood stove, and I already built a 10 cord wood shed, have a tractor with a logging winch, hydraulic wood splitter and plenty of trees to go around. Right now I have 3, 50 foot Oaks on the ground in addition to the various downed trees across my property.

 

[Nuker]

Huh. I had thought that nothing was as cheap as NG. We don't have it here so I really don't know.

I'd also be trying to make use of the 26 acres.

You should also consider very carefully how much the oil would actually get used once you have a wood burner in. Seems to me that most everyone I've read about on here who has a combo oil rarely or never uses the oil side. In my case, I put in a wood boiler, and an electric one for backup, and got rid of my old wood/oil combo. It was only used one day last winter. Also put in a new 80 gallon electric DHW heater, that gets heated when wood about 80% of the year. If we were away more in the winter & needed a backup frequently, I likely would have went with the same wood boiler, with a new direct vent oil boiler.

Feels pretty good though not having an oil tank in the house anymore.

One big reason I want to keep an oil or similar option is I might be selling the place in the next couple of years. I don't want to, but might have to because of work.

The place I work is shutting down at the end of next year, so I may be out of a job then, but I will know in the next couple of months. If I do have a job longer than that, I may still be moving in the next 3-5 years.

I would like to stay at my place for 30 years or more if possible, but I am trying to balance my decision to let me stop using oil now, but keep an automated system on the off chance that I will be selling the place sooner rather than later. I have no problem gathering and splitting all the wood I need to run the boiler year round, but who knows if a potential buyer would feel the same way as I do.

I love being out on my property, running my tractor and saw, heating my house from my own property, but I know it isn't for everyone.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Too bad the Windhager isn't direct vent.

Testing is on going with standard of the shelf direct vent kits available in North America: Field Controls, Tjernlund.
Looks promising.
Will be released in Spring 2014 for the BioWIN product line

 

[velvetfoot]

Excellent! That seems like a sweet unit.

 

[maple1]

One big reason I want to keep an oil or similar option is I might be selling the place in the next couple of years. I don't want to, but might have to because of work.

The place I work is shutting down at the end of next year, so I may be out of a job then, but I will know in the next couple of months. If I do have a job longer than that, I may still be moving in the next 3-5 years.

In that case, I would likely upgrade the fireplace with an insert or freestanding stove, and utilize both stoves as much as I could. A new boiler is a pretty long-term investment, would be a shame to have to walk away from it after only a couple of years - a prospective buyer might see it as more of a hindrance than a help. Which is also a shame, but there's a pretty high level of ignorance out there about these things.

 

[Nuker]

In that case, I would likely upgrade the fireplace with an insert or freestanding stove, and utilize both stoves as much as I could. A new boiler is a pretty long-term investment, would be a shame to have to walk away from it after only a couple of years - a prospective buyer might see it as more of a hindrance than a help. Which is also a shame, but there's a pretty high level of ignorance out there about these things.

Yeah, I already decided I would have to be committed to living in the place for the foreseeable future before buying one of these. I think 5 years would be my minimum.

I had a freestanding wood stove attached to the fireplace when I bought it, it didn't heat that well since the house is long and it is on the extreme end.

I am also getting more quotes on geothermal in the spring due to convenience of operation and the ROI if selling the place any time soon. I would do all the install myself for Geo, but I think sinking wells through the granite is a major cost that might make it unreasonable.

 

[maple1]

Yeah, I already decided I would have to be committed to living in the place for the foreseeable future before buying one of these. I think 5 years would be my minimum.

I had a freestanding wood stove attached to the fireplace when I bought it, it didn't heat that well since the house is long and it is on the extreme end.

I am also getting more quotes on geothermal in the spring due to convenience of operation and the ROI if selling the place any time soon. I would do all the install myself for Geo, but I think sinking wells through the granite is a major cost that might make it unreasonable.

A Geo at least I think would be more of a selling point than a wood boiler, generally speaking. Unless you happened to find the right buyer - someone just like you. I considered Geo too, but since I have baseboards a Geo would have needed some kind of retrofitting of either air ductwork or low temp radiation (infloor or panels). I likely would have been looking at close to $30k. Then recurring electric use to run it. Definitely sounds like your basement situation would ideal for a gassifying boiler & storage with the entry & high ceiling.

Good luck, tough choices indeed.