Lopi Insert Not Putting Off Heat?

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

Hi all! My husband and I are relatively new to burning (this is our second year) and we love it! Nothing beats wood heat!

However, my mom bought a new home a few months ago and got a new Lopi Next Gen Fyre insert (medium ).

The issue is that it’s really struggling to put off any heat. She’s ran it all day long and it won’t even raise the temperature in her house one degree. In fact, it won’t even keep the central heat from coming on!

We get it started with some pine, then keep it running with well-seasoned oak (we’ve used a moisture meter and it’s pretty dry).

It takes about an hour for the blower to come on. She burns with the air intake fully open to try and keep it burning warm.

Her house is 2,400 sq ft, so I know that it wouldn’t effectively heat the entire house well (the insert is rated for 2,000 sq ft). But I would think it would at least raise the temperature in the living room where the stove is?

She does have pretty high ceilings (I think 20 feet), but she does have a really big fan blowing the correct direction to help push the heat back down. The flue pipe goes straight up the chimney, no bends, about 20 feet.

Any ideas on why it’s struggling so much? She thinks it’s because she “doesn’t know how to do it right.” But I’m wondering if it’s maybe a stove problem?

Added two pictures of the stove setup for reference.

Thanks for the help!

 

[begreen]

The insert can not get into secondary combustion with the air control open wide. All of the heat is going up the flue. It will get hotter if she turns down the air say to 50% once the wood is burning well. If she can not do this without smoldering the fire, then the problem is the wood is not fully seasoned. She can also load more wood. That looks like a half-load in the pictures.

Also, if this is an exterior fireplace, did they install a block-off plate in the damper area? That really helps keep the heat in the house and around the insert, instead of heating the outdoors through the masonry.

And finally, it sounds like she should have gotten a large insert, preferably not flush, for more radiant heat. The tall ceiling is adding a lot more cubic footage to heat.

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

The insert can not get into secondary combustion with the air control open wide. All of the heat is going up the flue. It will get hotter if she turns down the air say to 50% once the wood is burning well. If she can not do this without smoldering the fire, then the problem is the wood is not fully seasoned. She can also load more wood. That looks like a half-load in the pictures.

Also, if this is an exterior fireplace, did they install a block-off plate in the damper area? That really helps keep the heat in the house and around the insert, instead of heating the outdoors through the masonry.

And finally, it sounds like she should have gotten the large insert. The tall ceiling is adding a lot more cubic footage to heat.

The insert can not get into secondary combustion with the air control open wide. All of the heat is going up the flue. It will get hotter if she turns down the air say to 50% once the wood is burning well. If she can not do this without smoldering the fire, then the problem is the wood is not fully seasoned. She can also load more wood. That looks like a half-load in the pictures.

Also, if this is an exterior fireplace, did they install a block-off plate in the damper area? That really helps keep the heat in the house and around the insert, instead of heating the outdoors through the masonry.

And finally, it sounds like she should have gotten a large insert, preferably not flush, for more radiant heat. The tall ceiling is adding a lot more cubic footage to heat.

Thank you for your help!

So, yesterday we rechecked the wood she was using and tried to burn pieces only between 10-15% and loaded the firebox fuller. After the blower came on, we lowered the air intake to about 50%, like you recommended.

Still, no secondaries. Like, none. The fire was going pretty well, it wasn’t dying out by any means. I’m not sure why that’s happening.

We called the install people and asked what they thought, and if they thought she should get the larger insert. They said they think it’s something with the air intake not being controlled properly (I’m assuming user error), and that the medium size should work just fine for her home.

Also, it does appear they installed a block off plate.

Today, she started with pine and reloaded a full load of seasoned pine, and the secondaries were going well. Then, she added oak, and they stopped again, even though the moisture content was low.

Any thoughts on why that could be?

 

[Vg3200p]

Is the moisture% being checked on a fresh split face? Or on the outside of the seasoned oak?

 

[bholler]

Thank you for your help!

So, yesterday we rechecked the wood she was using and tried to burn pieces only between 10-15% and loaded the firebox fuller. After the blower came on, we lowered the air intake to about 50%, like you recommended.

Still, no secondaries. Like, none. The fire was going pretty well, it wasn’t dying out by any means. I’m not sure why that’s happening.

We called the install people and asked what they thought, and if they thought she should get the larger insert. They said they think it’s something with the air intake not being controlled properly (I’m assuming user error), and that the medium size should work just fine for her home.

Also, it does appear they installed a block off plate.

Today, she started with pine and reloaded a full load of seasoned pine, and the secondaries were going well. Then, she added oak, and they stopped again, even though the moisture content was low.

Any thoughts on why that could be?

Are you opening the air back up every time you load? Then shutting it back again after the fire is well established again? Also make sure you are respliting the wood and testing on a fresh face. 10%is very unlikely

 

[begreen]

Is the moisture% being checked on a fresh split face? Or on the outside of the seasoned oak?

This^^. How is the moisture being tested on the oak wood?

 

[TradEddie]

First question is whether that insert has a bypass or not. If it does, the bypass should only be open for the first minute or two when starting from cold, as soon as flames are steadily going upwards, the bypass should be closed. On reloads, it should only be open when the door is open.

Secondly, as others have said, running with the air fully open is simply wrong. It's counterintuitive, but you want to cruise with as little air as possible, just short of where the fire dies out, or until the heat output is enough. Even 50% open is too much. When I first saw my manual said close the air all but 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch (out of a total of 2" of travel) , I assumed it was a typo, but it isn't. I usually run my Lopi fully closed, barely cracked open often becomes too hot for my room.

The goal is not to have blazing flames like a fireplace, the goal at startup is to heat the tubes up top to create superheated jets of air that will ignite smoke and gases coming off the wood resulting in a hot clean efficient burn. Ideal conditions have secondary flames dancing above the wood, with only a small glow below the wood, all achieved in 15 minutes from a cold start. Even the best of us won't get that every time.

Light the fire with air fully open, once there are steady flames, reduce it to 50%, let it settle, then every 3-5 minutes if the fire looks good, reduce it half way more towards closed i.e. if full travel is 2" of movement, first close it one inch, then another 1/2" then 1/4", then 1/8". If you reach a point where closing kills the fire, then open back slightly, otherwise keep closing it more, until it's fully closed. When done perfectly this can take as little as ten minutes from stone cold, but usually about 15, sometimes 20. If this isn't working, either your wood is wet or there's something wrong with the stove.

Read about "Top down" starting techniques, they're great, but master the basic controls first.

TE

 

[begreen]

Nice tips TE. The Lopi Medium Flush does have a bypass.

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

Are you opening the air back up every time you load? Then shutting it back again after the fire is well established again? Also make sure you are respliting the wood and testing on a fresh face. 10%is very unlikely

Thank you!

Okay, so we hadn’t been testing it that way. So today we split some pieces and tested the fresh cut face. Some of the oak was about 22%. So we went through and found all the pine pieces that read 14-18%, and we’re going to try tonight with only those pieces and see if that makes a difference.

 

[VintageGal]

Please do not give up on your new stove. Unless the installers made a gross error (s), you can expect to get very decent heat from that unit. I would not allow the dealership to sell you something bigger and "better". I think you can learn to live with this stove and gain from the membership's knowledge and experience. Don't give up yet!

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

First question is whether that insert has a bypass or not. If it does, the bypass should only be open for the first minute or two when starting from cold, as soon as flames are steadily going upwards, the bypass should be closed. On reloads, it should only be open when the door is open.

Secondly, as others have said, running with the air fully open is simply wrong. It's counterintuitive, but you want to cruise with as little air as possible, just short of where the fire dies out, or until the heat output is enough. Even 50% open is too much. When I first saw my manual said close the air all but 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch (out of a total of 2" of travel) , I assumed it was a typo, but it isn't. I usually run my Lopi fully closed, barely cracked open often becomes too hot for my room.

The goal is not to have blazing flames like a fireplace, the goal at startup is to heat the tubes up top to create superheated jets of air that will ignite smoke and gases coming off the wood resulting in a hot clean efficient burn. Ideal conditions have secondary flames dancing above the wood, with only a small glow below the wood, all achieved in 15 minutes from a cold start. Even the best of us won't get that every time.

Light the fire with air fully open, once there are steady flames, reduce it to 50%, let it settle, then every 3-5 minutes if the fire looks good, reduce it half way more towards closed i.e. if full travel is 2" of movement, first close it one inch, then another 1/2" then 1/4", then 1/8". If you reach a point where closing kills the fire, then open back slightly, otherwise keep closing it more, until it's fully closed. When done perfectly this can take as little as ten minutes from stone cold, but usually about 15, sometimes 20. If this isn't working, either your wood is wet or there's something wrong with the stove.

Read about "Top down" starting techniques, they're great, but master the basic controls first.

TE

Thank you for the help!

Yes, the stove does have a bypass.

So, tonight we tried to do it just like you said. We used pine that was 14-18% moisture on the inside after we chopped it. Closed the bypass after about 2 minutes. Started up much faster!

We were able to close the air intake just like you said, 50% on down until it was nearly closed, without killing the fire. We did see a little bit of the secondaries going at first, which was encouraging! And the wood did burn way slower.

However, I think around the time we reloaded, everything got messed up. We used the same pine we had tested, but the fire would die out if we closed the air much more than 50%. And we really didn’t see much with regards to the secondary air combustion.

I’m wondering if I just have no idea what the secondaries are actually supposed to look like. I added a picture: is this always what it’s supposed to look like? (This was right after the first load got established). Or can it/should it look different?

And still, the portable thermostat was placed approximately 7 feet in front of the stove, and after 4 hours of burning it had only gone up 2 degrees (up to 63.7).

Did we do something wrong with reloading?

Also, how high should the blower be on? I feel like when we turned it on all the way, it felt colder in front of the stove and warmer above it, like all the heat started going up. Does that make sense or am I just crazy?

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

Please do not give up on your new stove. Unless the installers made a gross error (s), you can expect to get very decent heat from that unit. I would not allow the dealership to sell you something bigger and "better". I think you can learn to live with this stove and gain from the membership's knowledge and experience. Don't give up yet!

Thank you! We’ve already learned so much from this forum and are so grateful for it! I’m sure we can get it figured out. Everyone has said nothing but good things about this stove. I’m sure we are just doing something wrong

 

[begreen]

That is nice secondary combustion showing in the picture. Pine has less heat content than oak. Bring some of the oak into the house for a week or two to help dry it out faster. Then load it together with 50% pine for a hotter fire.

All said though, I think you mayhave been better off with a non-flush, 3 cu ft insert due to the large volume of space being heated.

Also, it does appear they installed a block off plate.

How so, is this on the invoice? Note this is different from a top plate.

 

[VintageGal]

Thank you! We’ve already learned so much from this forum and are so grateful for it! I’m sure we can get it figured out. Everyone has said nothing but good things about this stove. I’m sure we are just doing something wrong

I actually paid an old chimney sweep to teach me how to burn with the bio logs. I bought some of the northern Idaho energy logs which are completely additive free with no glue or binders. Do you have a qualified local chimney sweep could come and teach you how to burn your wood?

 

[TradEddie]

I’m wondering if I just have no idea what the secondaries are actually supposed to look like. I added a picture: is this always what it’s supposed to look like? (This was right after the first load got established). Or can it/should it look different?

Those look like great secondaries, but they can look calmer or more vigorous and still be good. It's not just the obvious jets up high (I rarely get those), all that dancing flame is secondary combustion. See how most of the flame isn't coming from the wood, it's just lighting in mid-air? Closing down slowly and getting the feel of what looks right will come with experience.

Don't even bother trying to burn 22% oak, it may sound only a little less than ideal, but somehow there's a dramatic difference in how 22% oak and 20% oak behaves. Enjoy it next season, or mix it with the pine, but don't be put off until you see how well it burns when properly seasoned.

Lastly, the fan. Theoretically it shouldn't matter, a fan on high speed should blow out more air but it won't be as hot as the smaller volume of hotter air at low speed. Nobody here will say that's their personal experience. I find that the fan on high disrupts the natural convection of the room, and I get better results with low speed fan, If the room is hot, I turn the fan off to let the masonry heat up to get long lasting heat.

TE

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

Those look like great secondaries, but they can look calmer or more vigorous and still be good. It's not just the obvious jets up high (I rarely get those), all that dancing flame is secondary combustion. See how most of the flame isn't coming from the wood, it's just lighting in mid-air? Closing down slowly and getting the feel of what looks right will come with experience.

Don't even bother trying to burn 22% oak, it may sound only a little less than ideal, but somehow there's a dramatic difference in how 22% oak and 20% oak behaves. Enjoy it next season, or mix it with the pine, but don't be put off until you see how well it burns when properly seasoned.

Lastly, the fan. Theoretically it shouldn't matter, a fan on high speed should blow out more air but it won't be as hot as the smaller volume of hotter air at low speed. Nobody here will say that's their personal experience. I find that the fan on high disrupts the natural convection of the room, and I get better results with low speed fan, If the room is hot, I turn the fan off to let the masonry heat up to get long lasting heat.

TE

Okay, I was curious about the mid air flames. Good to know those are secondaries too!

Thank you for the advice. We’ll probably give her our pine then for this year. She bought 2 cords of “seasoned” oak, but I guess it’s not all that seasoned after all.

I wasn’t sure about the fan, but I didn’t think it would make that much of a difference.

I still feel like it should be heating directly in front of the fireplace though, at least enough to make it cozy. I’m wondering if something was installed incorrectly or maybe a part is broken? The people who installed it are quite confident that size should heat her house, even with the high ceilings.

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

That is nice secondary combustion showing in the picture. Pine has less heat content than oak. Bring some of the oak into the house for a week or two to help dry it out faster. Then load it together with 50% pine for a hotter fire.

All said though, I think you mayhave been better off with a non-flush, 3 cu ft insert due to the large volume of space being heated.

How so, is this on the invoice? Note this is different from a top plate.

Okay, so yes, we had seen it on the invoice. And it does say top plate. I didn’t know those were different!

Do you think it would make a big enough difference having one installed? Or do you think she should look into getting a bigger stove?

And by a 3 cubic foot not flush, is that still a Lopi or would she have to get a totally different brand? And do you think she’s just going to have to be out the cost of that stove? (It was very expensive! I’d feel so bad)

 

[begreen]

Okay, so yes, we had seen it on the invoice. And it does say top plate. I didn’t know those were different!

Do you think it would make a big enough difference having one installed? Or do you think she should look into getting a bigger stove?

And by a 3 cubic foot not flush, is that still a Lopi or would she have to get a totally different brand? And do you think she’s just going to have to be out the cost of that stove? (It was very expensive! I’d feel so bad)

Yes, if this is an exterior wall fireplace, adding a block-off plate in the damper area will notably increase the heat output into the room.

Unfortunately, Lopi no longer makes a large insert that isn't flush. They used to and they were good heaters. If the stove shop can not make her insert heat well with good firewood then they should take the insert back in exchange. It was on their advice that she bought the insert. Perhaps the dealer sells other brand inserts too?

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

Yes, if this is an exterior wall fireplace, adding a block-off plate in the damper area will notably increase the heat output into the room.

Unfortunately, Lopi no longer makes a large insert that isn't flush. They used to and they were good heaters. If the stove shop can not make her insert heat well with good firewood then they should take the insert back in exchange. It was on their advice that she bought the insert. Perhaps the dealer sells other brand inserts too?

Okay. Yes, this is an exterior wall fireplace. So, maybe we’ll have them come out and install one and see how that works.

And thank you for all the advice and help! I wouldn’t have thought an exchange, that would be a good idea as a last resort, if nothing else will work.

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

I actually paid an old chimney sweep to teach me how to burn with the bio logs. I bought some of the northern Idaho energy logs which are completely additive free with no glue or binders. Do you have a qualified local chimney sweep could come and teach you how to burn your wood?

Oh, bio logs, I haven’t heard of them! I’ll look into those, too.

The only qualified chimney sweeps that can come out to where she lives (small town!) are the ones who sold and installed this stove. They had given us some tips of how to start the fire in it, and it works really well! But still didn’t help heat output.

 

[mellow]

Exterior wall inserts benefit greatly with insulating the fireplace, this is probably something you would have to do but will make a huge difference in heat output along with the block off plate.

 

[begreen]

Lopi makes excellent products. It's a shame they went all flush with the new large inserts. Do you know what other brands of stoves the dealer sells?

 

[VintageGal]

Oh, bio logs, I haven’t heard of them! I’ll look into those, too.

The only qualified chimney sweeps that can come out to where she lives (small town!) are the ones who sold and installed this stove. They had given us some tips of how to start the fire in it, and it works really well! But still didn’t help heat output.

Be careful when purchasing the bio logs, some are definitely inferior because they use a wax coating and you definitely don't want that. I know how to burn them but I prefer to burn oak. My oak has to be seasoned two or three years to be dry. My retired neighbors swear by the energy logs and wouldn't use anything else and they've been burning wood for 40 years. No mess no fuss but you need a lot of kindling.

These are a premium brand

Wood Fuel Home - North Idaho Energy Logs - Burn Clean - Burn Friendly

Warmer, greener, cleaner and wiser wood fuel. North Idaho Energy Logs produce more heat from 100% natural recycled wood and cut emissions by more than 50%.

northidahoenergylogs.com

 

[begreen]

Be careful when purchasing the bio logs, some are definitely inferior because they use a wax coating and you definitely don't want that. I know how to burn them but I prefer to burn oak. My oak has to be seasoned two or three years to be dry. My retired neighbors swear by the energy logs and wouldn't use anything else and they've been burning wood for 40 years. No mess no fuss but you need a lot of kindling.

These are a premium brand

Wood Fuel Home - North Idaho Energy Logs - Burn Clean - Burn Friendly

Warmer, greener, cleaner and wiser wood fuel. North Idaho Energy Logs produce more heat from 100% natural recycled wood and cut emissions by more than 50%.

northidahoenergylogs.com

Yes, and many of them are not densely compressed. When you burn the cheapo logs some expand like one of those magic snakes that we burned as kids.
You may not be able to find decent compressed logs, but if there is a Tractor Supply, they may have passable compressed sawdust bricks available. They sell ECCO and Redstones depending on the store.

 

[brenndatomu]

And just to be clear, you can turn the air down even more than 50%...you can go clear closed once the wood is burning well (well, its never actually fully closed, by design) just don't do it all at once...turn it down to maybe 75%, then after the fire settles a bit, down to 50%, then 25%, then "closed" over a period of maybe 10-15 minutes or so...this is only with good dry wood though (under 20% MC)