Lopi Leyden advice

[Rogersj]

I am looking for advice from others that know more than I do, I have a lopi Leyden bought in 2008 that needs the combustor replaced the cost for the combustor is $400.

1- is it worth spending this much money to repair stove?
2 - should I buy a new Englander nc30 for $900 instead of spending $400 on Leyden?
3 - can I safely use Leyden with combustor removed and just lose efficiency?

 

[begreen]

1) debatable
2) maybe or an Englander 15-SSW02
3) not really

 

[defiant3]

Consider that this isn't the last catalytic combustor you'll ever but for this stove. In some years (3? 5? maybe 7?) you'll likely be spending this money all over again, not to mention other associated parts is may need. There's a bypass, refractory, etc. In other words, if you were to buy an Englander now, which DOESN'T have all that related maintenance, how long would it be before you would have spent that money anyway?

Catalytic technology is old school now. We should all just move along. Me, I can't wait till we have digital stoves!

 

[Woody Stover]

Consider that this isn't the last catalytic combustor you'll ever but for this stove. In some years (3? 5? maybe 7?) you'll likely be spending this money all over again, not to mention other associated parts is may need.

Well, it's not a catalytic stove. It's a downdraft stove, so he is talking about replacing the refractory assembly. I get your point about spending money on the stove, but I'm not sure how often you have to replace the refractory on a Leyden...might last a good many years. Maybe a couple other owners will chime in.

Catalytic technology is old school now. We should all just move along. Me, I can't wait till we have digital stoves!

Not really pertinent to this thread, but for the clean burn, long burn times, less wood needed (cut, split, stacked,) I like my cat stoves. $125 for a Woodstock combustor, spread over several years, is well worth it to me. I think the end of the cat is a long way off.
As far as your digital stove, how much will the chip cost to replace when it fries from the heat? At what point in the stove's life does it become hard to find that part anymore? And it might be a long shot but in case of a CME or EMP attack, not only will all other means of human survival be wiped out, your stove won't work either!

 

[begreen]

The Leyden and the Avalon Arbor equivalent don't have the best track record. Issues with them are similar to those of the VC downdrafts and the Harman Oakwood. With decent draft it can heat well though it tends to burn hot in the rear of the stove and there were issues with keeping the bypass closed on some stoves.

 

[webby3650]

Well, it's not a catalytic stove. It's a downdraft stove, so he is talking about replacing the refractory assembly. I get your point about spending money on the stove, but I'm not sure how often you have to replace the refractory on a Leyden...might last a good many years. Maybe a couple other owners will chime in.
Not really pertinent to this thread, but for the clean burn, long burn times, less wood needed (cut, split, stacked,) I like my cat stoves. $125 for a Woodstock combustor, spread over several years, is well worth it to me. I think the end of the cat is a long way off.
As far as your digital stove, how much will the chip cost to replace when it fries from the heat? At what point in the stove's life does it become hard to find that part anymore? And it might be a long shot but in case of a CME or EMP attack, not only will all other means of human survival be wiped out, your stove won't work either!

Cat stoves are the way of the future. There will be cat stoves, hybrid, and straight non-cats with very little or possibly no air control at all.

 

[webby3650]

I would fix it, then put it on Craigslist. You could recover some of your money that way. This stove is plagued with problems and parts failures.

 

[chance04]

Cat stoves are the way of the future. There will be cat stoves, hybrid, and straight non-cats with very little or possibly no air control at all.

Interesting, can you elaborate on firebox control with no air control?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[webby3650]

A few low end stoves and "high efficiency" fireplaces can meet the EPA requirements by .only allowing a factory set amount of air into the stove. There literally is no air control for the user to adjust. This makes testing far cheaper by not allowing any adjustment. Not to mention the fact that these stoves would not pass testing if their was an air control, this too saves on engineering.

 

[chance04]

A few low end stoves and "high efficiency" fireplaces can meet the EPA requirements by .only allowing a factory set amount of air into the stove. There literally is no air control for the user to adjust. This makes testing far cheaper by not allowing any adjustment. Not to mention the fact that these stoves would not pass testing if their was an air control, this too saves on engineering.

I understand this might save a bunch of money for manufacturers. I was curious as to possible "advancements" to further assist wood burners in efficiency or extended burns. Automated so to speak. Taking something like the "alien tech" from BK and developing it farther. Just curious is all.

Thanks
Tony

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[webby3650]

I understand this might save a bunch of money for manufacturers. I was curious as to possible "advancements" to further assist wood burners in efficiency or extended burns. Automated so to speak. Taking something like the "alien tech" from BK and developing it farther. Just curious is all.

Thanks
Tony

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

There will be further developments from bigger companies no doubt. The trend will steer toward cat stoves though. That's why you see the new hybrid designs, it takes a catalyst to get the higher efficiencies across the board. Non-cat secondary combustion tube stoves will struggle to comply with the stringent EPA guidelines.

 

[drz1050]

I see why a company would do it for testing purposes, but why would any consumer ever buy a heater that you can't adjust? It'll either heat you out of the house, or not provide enough to be worthwhile 99% of the time. Sounds lovely, sign me up!

 

[webby3650]

I see why a company would do it for testing purposes, but why would any consumer ever buy a heater that you can't adjust? It'll either heat you out of the house, or not provide enough to be worthwhile 99% of the time. Sounds lovely, sign me up!

It's cheap!

 

[rScotty]

I am looking for advice from others that know more than I do, I have a lopi Leyden bought in 2008 that needs the combustor replaced the cost for the combustor is $400.

Hello - I'm always glad to hear about other Lopi Leydens. We also have one that I bought about the same time. At the time I bought it, I was in the lucky position of being able to buy the stove of my dreams for a brand new house. After looking at lots and lots of stoves, the Lopi line seemed to be designed with more insight about wood stoves and to a higher material standard than the other stoves I saw back in 2006/2007. The closest competitor seemed to be the VC, but they were under new ownership and nobody seemed to be quite sure what that meant.

I bought the Lopi, my buddy bought a catalytic VC for his similar new-built house nearby. We both llive rurally in the Rocky Mountains and have a lot of previous experience with wood stoves. Stoves are a constant source of conversation. We've compared the Lopi and the VC for a decade now. And both of us are now considering getting new stoves! So far we haven't seen anything to make us want to run out and buy a particular newer model - which is kind of disappointing.

So what happened to the combustor on yours? I've never really looked at mine other than to vacuum around it every few years.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

The Leyden and the Avalon Arbor equivalent don't have the best track record. Issues with them are similar to those of the VC downdrafts and the Harman Oakwood. With decent draft it can heat well though it tends to burn hot in the rear of the stove and there were issues with keeping the bypass closed on some stoves.

I don't think the Leyden is the perfect stove. But lets be fair. The extra shielding that comes stock on the Leyden and Arbor is there to allow it to be installed closer to a wall. I've not noticed it burning hotter at the rear than any other stove I've measured. There are no unusual hot spots.

Just as you say, the bypass handle did have a problem staying closed on Leydens. On mine, too. But right about the time I began to notice the problem, a kit showed up from the factory which contained parts to fix the problem that I hadn't even told them about. The fix was simple, clever, and easy to install. 100% fix, and also allowed the bypass to be set (and to stay set) in an infinite range of positions. Very handy.

But I agree these old Leydens did have their real downsides. I'd be glad to discuss those too. I'm finding that some can be fixed. Maybe we will all discover something.
enjoy!
rScotty

 

[webby3650]

I love discussing Leydens as well. I get to work on them... so I've seen all the failures. I've had 2 different ones in my house and both had different results. After spending lots of time trying to diagnose the run away fire conditions that were all to common we found the problem. Lopi sent all 12 of the revisions over the years and nothing helped. Turns out the ash pan was different on the earlier model. It prevented the Ashpan door from sealing at the top. Lopi revised the ash pan and never notified their dealers. In fact they acted like they knew nothing about it. I had both ashpans side by side and the earlier model was designed differently. Lopi wouldn't even provide a new ashpan... We had to purchase a new one!

 

[rScotty]

I love discussing Leydens as well. I get to work on them... so I've seen all the failures. I've had 2 different ones in my house and both had different results. After spending lots of time trying to diagnose the run away fire conditions that were all to common we found the problem. Lopi sent all 12 of the revisions over the years and nothing helped. Turns out the ash pan was different on the earlier model. It prevented the Ashpan door from sealing at the top. Lopi revised the ash pan and never notified their dealers. In fact they acted like they knew nothing about it. I had both ashpans side by side and the earlier model was designed differently. Lopi wouldn't even provide a new ashpan... We had to purchase a new one!

I see that you have an Isle Royale. That stove was also on my short list; in fact after the VC was eliminated the final choice came down to either the Isle Royale or the Leyden. I can't remember why I chose as I did. Perhaps that was a mistake, as I see that the Royale is still made and sold. How would you compare them?

I haven't personally seen the run-away fire conditions you speak of - but then we pay close attention to the burn. And since we get all the heat needed from a small fire at the very lowest settings then I rarely turn it up after the initial warm up. Of course burning as we do does lead to more creosote in the Dura-vent chimney and that is our currentproblem.

The ash pan on mine seals perfectly although it does require being vacuumed out behind it once a year. The Leyden benefits from frequent cleaning.

Although we've owned at least a dozen stoves, I haven't done much work on other people's stoves. My road to stove knowledge is a lifetime of use plus 30 years as a welder & machinist followed then by 20 years as an engineer designing things for better gases and liquid flow. I do not have specific knowledge of many of today's stoves - but am in the process of studying up.
thanks for the reply,
rScotty

 

[webby3650]

I see that you have an Isle Royale. That stove was also on my short list; in fact after the VC was eliminated the final choice came down to either the Isle Royale or the Leyden. I can't remember why I chose as I did. Perhaps that was a mistake, as I see that the Royale is still made and sold. How would you compare them?

I haven't personally seen the run-away fire conditions you speak of - but then we pay close attention to the burn. And since we get all the heat needed from a small fire at the very lowest settings then I rarely turn it up after the initial warm up. Of course burning as we do does lead to more creosote in the Dura-vent chimney and that is our currentproblem.

The ash pan on mine seals perfectly although it does require being vacuumed out behind it once a year. The Leyden benefits from frequent cleaning.

Although we've owned at least a dozen stoves, I haven't done much work on other people's stoves. My road to stove knowledge is a lifetime of use plus 30 years as a welder & machinist followed then by 20 years as an engineer designing things for better gases and liquid flow. I do not have specific knowledge of many of today's stoves - but am in the process of studying up.
thanks for the reply,
rScotty

Have you removed the refractory fire back and vacuumed out the combustion chamber?

 

[branchburner]

I've not noticed it burning hotter at the rear than any other stove I've measured. There are no unusual hot spots.

Of course the Leyden is different from the Oakwood, but has the same basic rear-combustion technology, and I've noticed temps occasionally considerably higher on unshielded portions in the rear of the stove. We're talking over 800f while the stovetop was only in the 600f range, measured with an IR gun. After all, the secondary combustion is taking place in that section, so it would make sense that the rear often runs much hotter than in other stoves I've had (both cat hybrids and burn tubes).

Plenty of people have had very good and problem-free results with these stoves, no doubt, but the fact remains that nearly ALL cast-iron models of these rear-chamber stoves (whether Lopi, Harman or VC) have had at least a few reports of "going nuclear" where the rear of the stove glows (or comes close to glowing) along with reports of damaged/degraded combustors over time.

 

[webby3650]

Of course the Leyden is different from the Oakwood, but has the same basic rear-combustion technology, and I've noticed temps occasionally considerably higher on unshielded portions in the rear of the stove. We're talking over 800f while the stovetop was only in the 600f range, measured with an IR gun. After all, the secondary combustion is taking place in that section, so it would make sense that the rear often runs much hotter than in other stoves I've had (both cat hybrids and burn tubes).

Plenty of people have had very good and problem-free results with these stoves, no doubt, but the fact remains that nearly ALL cast-iron models of these rear-chamber stoves (whether Lopi, Harman or VC) have had at least a few reports of "going nuclear" where the rear of the stove glows (or comes close to glowing) along with reports of damaged/degraded combustors over time.

My Leyden went nuclear once. The entire back of the stove was glowing orange including the flue collar. I put a left over piece of metal roofing behind the stove to shield the wall, if I wasn't home it could have been a disaster! The primary air was shut off, and almost no flames in the box, it was an all secondary nuclear event.. I'm just glad the cheap Chinese castings held up to the heat.

 

[Woody Stover]

The entire back of the stove was glowing orange including the flue collar. The primary air was shut off, and almost no flames in the box, it was an all secondary nuclear event.

I'm just glad the cheap Chinese castings held up to the heat.

At least they survived. I imagine there are varying quality levels that come out of China...I don't know.

 

[webby3650]

At least they survived. I imagine there are varying quality levels that come out of China...I don't know.

Maybe. The Lopi Cape Cod was cast in china as well. Mine cracked after only a few months.

 

[begreen]

Didn't Travis switch to a European foundry a year or two ago?

 

[webby3650]

Didn't Travis switch to a European foundry a year or two ago?

Yes. Morso is doing their castings would be my guess.

It's always funny to me how the reps would never mention where the iron was cast, they were never sure. But once it's in Europe they want to talk about it and are willing to say it was the lowest bidder in China...

 

[rScotty]

Have you removed the refractory fire back and vacuumed out the combustion chamber?

No, I've never done it that way. I vacuum through the holes in the combustion brick to get to the combustor. Then I remove the top flue and vacuum from the top to get around the sides. Both just like it says in the owner's manual. Seems easier than removing the refractory bricks. I like to leave all refractory parts in place so that a coating of insulating ash helps seal the seams. Anyway, my vacuuming method seems to work in that when we're done, there's a lot of ash in the vacuum bag.

But I will say that this vacuuming the brick doesn't seem to make any difference in how it operates. Not like vacuuming the ash pan and ash drawer gaskets surfaces so that the ash drawer has room for the door to fit and the gasket surfaces are air tite.
Like any stove with an ash collection area beneath the fire, it's critical that the ash drawer be air tight.

What about the Isle Royale? I'm curious about that stove. How does it's operation differ?
tnx, rScotty